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  • Originally posted by Ignorant Roy View Post
    I don't need to - MM has said

    P3: If it is inevitable that I choose X then I have no freewill.

    It does if MM's premise above is correct. The reason why Booth shoots is irrelevant. If there is any reason why it is inevitable that he shoots - and your memory would be such a reason - then that premise leads to Booth having no free will.

    I'm glad you chose Booth/Lincoln not Oswald/Kennedy
    You're confusing cause and effect. Booth's freewill decision caused the knowledge of that decision (conclusion #4 above). Our knowledge didn't cause his decision.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
      You're confusing cause and effect. Booth's freewill decision caused the knowledge of that decision (conclusion #4 above). Our knowledge didn't cause his decision.
      yeah because my knowledge of what happened doesn't change just because my position in time changes. The knowledge is already in my head, so whether I say in 2019, go to 1 million BC, or 1865 or 3065, doesn't make a difference. And the reason I know is because Booth did kill Lincoln. Of his own free will. Moving me in time was just a trick that changed nothing.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        That's what I said. My first sentence: "OK so imagine if you will, that all of time does exist."

        JimL, I think Oxmix is right, you either don't want to understand the opposing views to your's, or you are incapable of it. Nobody is asking you to accept their view, just understand it and acknowledge it, instead of acting like a moron and burning straw man arguments and making idiotic objections.
        Like I said, you are very confused, Sparko. Either that or you have a terrible reading comprehension problem. I know it's what you said, that's why I explained to you why what you said contradicts your own notion of the co-existence of foreknowledge and free will. If there is a you already existing in 2025, or if god can observe 2025, then 2025 already exists in some sense. That means you will not be travelling into the future, it means that you're already there, and have always been there since the beginning of creation. B-theory of time. Therefore, no free will. So, it is you who need understand other peoples views, if you are capable of it, instead of acting like a moron and burning strawman arguments and making idiotic objections.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
          Logic based on false or incomplete assumptions
          Which false incomplete assumptions would those be, Jim.


          is nothing more than assumption and therefore useless. The problem you are having is that you don't understand that you don't know enough to make a credible logical argument about how God can or can't know the future.
          Well, if that's what you now believe, then why have you even been trying to make a sensible logical argument in defense of the co-existence of eternal omniscience and free will. What seems to have happened is that you've come to realize there is no logical argument for your view, so you've resorted to the "logic doesn't matter when it comes to god argument." Fine by me, believe what you want, but you've conceded the argument.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by JimL View Post
            Which false incomplete assumptions would those be, Jim.



            Well, if that's what you now believe, then why have you even been trying to make a sensible logical argument in defense of the co-existence of eternal omniscience and free will. What seems to have happened is that you've come to realize there is no logical argument for your view, so you've resorted to the "logic doesn't matter when it comes to god argument." Fine by me, believe what you want, but you've conceded the argument.
            It only seems that way to you because dont understand orb.c are not trying to understand what I have said. But to be clear i am not conceding anything. You dont have a means to put limits on how God might know the future. Your argument is completely dependent on you being able to identify all posible means of God knowing the future. And further that those means ALL result in forcing the foreseen result. To assume you know all possible mechanisms for God knowing the future is just folly.



            Jim
            My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

            If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

            This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

            Comment


            • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
              "inevitable": Our choices are our choices. If I know you will eat chocolate if it is given to you, I'm not making you eat chocolate, you are. I just happen to know you like chocolate and will eat it if someone gives it to you. Free will is not compromised if I or anyone else knows what you will do. Again, you have this 'random number generator' philosophy around what free-will is. That is NOT what it is. free-will just means I get to choose. That choice will be based on what I value and who I am. It doesn't mean I'm going to randomly decide something that goes against everything I believe in.
              If you want to maintain that God is omniscient then it is inevitable you will “choose” what God has known eternally (long before you existed) you will choose.
              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                Um... this:

                P1: There is no possible world in which God foreknows I will freely choose X, but in which I choose not-X instead.
                P2: God foreknows I will freely choose X.
                C1: Therefore, I will freely choose X.

                does not assume the conclusion. But, sure, we can leave off the word "freely" if it makes your little heart happy.

                P1: There is no possible world in which God foreknows I will choose X, but in which I choose not-X instead.
                P2: God foreknows I will choose X.
                C1: Therefore, I will choose X.

                P3: If there are no possible worlds where I could choose not-X then it is necessary/inevitable that I choose X.
                P4: If it is necessary/inevitable that I choose X then I have no freewill.
                P5: There are possible worlds where I could choose not-X.
                C2: Therefore, God can foreknow that I will choose X without it being necessary/inevitable that I choose X.
                C3: Therefore, I have freewill.
                C4: Therefore, my choosing X logically precedes God's knowledge that I will choose X.

                P5 omits that those possible worlds are the ones in which God does not foreknow you will choose X. So C2 does not follow. C2 also contradicts P1.

                Again, these are your premises/conclusions:

                P1: There is no possible world in which God foreknows I will choose X, but in which I choose not-X instead.
                P2: God foreknows I will choose X.
                C1: Therefore, I will choose X.
                P3: If it is necessary/inevitable that I choose X then I have no freewill.
                C2: ...?
                Last edited by Roy; 01-16-2019, 05:26 AM.
                Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
                MM on climate change: Looking at the historical temperature data in my region over the past ten years shows that temperatures have been stable ...

                mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Ignorant Roy View Post
                  P5 omits that those possible worlds are the ones in which God does not foreknow you will choose X.
                  Of course it "omits" it because there is no possible world in which God doesn't know my freewill choices (P1). That's the nature of omniscience, but it is not the case that this makes my choices either necessary or nevitable (P5 and C2) because logically, my choices precede God's knowledge of those choices (C4).
                  Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                  But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                  Than a fool in the eyes of God


                  From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                    P5 omits that those possible worlds are the ones in which God does not foreknow you will choose X.
                    Of course it "omits" it because there is no possible world in which God doesn't know my freewill choices (P1).
                    The possible worlds in which God does not foreknow you will choose X are not just possible worlds in which God doesn't know what you will choose. They also include those in which he foreknows you will choose something else.

                    Apparently that possibility didn't occur to you, even though you've mentioned it several times yourself. You truly are a blithering idiot.
                    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                    MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                    MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
                    MM on climate change: Looking at the historical temperature data in my region over the past ten years shows that temperatures have been stable ...

                    mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Ignorant Roy View Post
                      Apparently that possibility didn't occur to you, even though you've mentioned it several times yourself.
                      This is another one of those times when I'm just going to sit back and wait for for the low-wattage lightbulb in your head to flicker on.

                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                        It only seems that way to you because dont understand orb.c are not trying to understand what I have said. But to be clear i am not conceding anything. You dont have a means to put limits on how God might know the future. Your argument is completely dependent on you being able to identify all posible means of God knowing the future. And further that those means ALL result in forcing the foreseen result. To assume you know all possible mechanisms for God knowing the future is just folly.
                        No, the difference is that I am going by the facts as we empirically understand them and you are ignoring them because they contradict what you believe. If your faith didn't get in the way, then you would understand that if the future exists in any sense, either in reality as in a static B-theory universe, or as knowledge in the mind of it's creator, then once you are born into it you would be determined by it, not free to cause it. Your argument is to ignore the obvious logic of that because you've been taught that an omniscient god exists and that you also believe you have free will. In other words, you have no argument, what you have is an unsubstantiated belief that stands in contradiction to logic. You actually, unkowingly, admit to that in the above, so I don't know why you aren't able to admit to it to yourself.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                          This is another one of those times when I'm just going to sit back and wait for for the low-wattage lightbulb in your head to flicker on.

                          Aw, bless.
                          Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                          MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                          MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
                          MM on climate change: Looking at the historical temperature data in my region over the past ten years shows that temperatures have been stable ...

                          mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                            Like I said, you are very confused, Sparko. Either that or you have a terrible reading comprehension problem. I know it's what you said, that's why I explained to you why what you said contradicts your own notion of the co-existence of foreknowledge and free will. If there is a you already existing in 2025, or if god can observe 2025, then 2025 already exists in some sense. That means you will not be travelling into the future, it means that you're already there, and have always been there since the beginning of creation. B-theory of time. Therefore, no free will. So, it is you who need understand other peoples views, if you are capable of it, instead of acting like a moron and burning strawman arguments and making idiotic objections.
                            So I guess the problem is that you are incapable of understanding the concepts being discussed. Good to know.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              So I guess the problem is that you are incapable of understanding the concepts being discussed. Good to know.
                              That is exactly your problem, and you continue to prove that every time you post.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                                That is exactly your problem, and you continue to prove that every time you post.
                                No JimL, everyone but Tassman has tried to explain how you are wrong and nothing they say makes a dent in your bubble. At first I thought maybe it was just you being stubborn, or trolling. But now I am convinced it is just that you are incapable of understanding the concepts involved. Much like when you and Shadowmaster were discussing physics and you refused to budge for your nonsensical views about General Relativity. Discussing the topic of time and space with you is a waste of time (pardon the pun)

                                You can't even consider the other person's viewpoint without burning a strawman version of what they say.

                                Comment

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