Originally posted by Ignorant Roy
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Trump's Christian supporters are unchristian
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Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostYou're confusing cause and effect. Booth's freewill decision caused the knowledge of that decision (conclusion #4 above). Our knowledge didn't cause his decision.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostThat's what I said. My first sentence: "OK so imagine if you will, that all of time does exist."
JimL, I think Oxmix is right, you either don't want to understand the opposing views to your's, or you are incapable of it. Nobody is asking you to accept their view, just understand it and acknowledge it, instead of acting like a moron and burning straw man arguments and making idiotic objections.
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostLogic based on false or incomplete assumptions
is nothing more than assumption and therefore useless. The problem you are having is that you don't understand that you don't know enough to make a credible logical argument about how God can or can't know the future.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostWhich false incomplete assumptions would those be, Jim.
Well, if that's what you now believe, then why have you even been trying to make a sensible logical argument in defense of the co-existence of eternal omniscience and free will. What seems to have happened is that you've come to realize there is no logical argument for your view, so you've resorted to the "logic doesn't matter when it comes to god argument." Fine by me, believe what you want, but you've conceded the argument.
JimMy brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post"inevitable": Our choices are our choices. If I know you will eat chocolate if it is given to you, I'm not making you eat chocolate, you are. I just happen to know you like chocolate and will eat it if someone gives it to you. Free will is not compromised if I or anyone else knows what you will do. Again, you have this 'random number generator' philosophy around what free-will is. That is NOT what it is. free-will just means I get to choose. That choice will be based on what I value and who I am. It doesn't mean I'm going to randomly decide something that goes against everything I believe in.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostUm... this:
P1: There is no possible world in which God foreknows I will freely choose X, but in which I choose not-X instead.
P2: God foreknows I will freely choose X.
C1: Therefore, I will freely choose X.
does not assume the conclusion. But, sure, we can leave off the word "freely" if it makes your little heart happy.
P1: There is no possible world in which God foreknows I will choose X, but in which I choose not-X instead.
P2: God foreknows I will choose X.
C1: Therefore, I will choose X.
P3: If there are no possible worlds where I could choose not-X then it is necessary/inevitable that I choose X.
P4: If it is necessary/inevitable that I choose X then I have no freewill.
P5: There are possible worlds where I could choose not-X.
C2: Therefore, God can foreknow that I will choose X without it being necessary/inevitable that I choose X.
C3: Therefore, I have freewill.
C4: Therefore, my choosing X logically precedes God's knowledge that I will choose X.
Again, these are your premises/conclusions:
P1: There is no possible world in which God foreknows I will choose X, but in which I choose not-X instead.
P2: God foreknows I will choose X.
C1: Therefore, I will choose X.
P3: If it is necessary/inevitable that I choose X then I have no freewill.
C2: ...?Last edited by Roy; 01-16-2019, 05:26 AM.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
MM on climate change: Looking at the historical temperature data in my region over the past ten years shows that temperatures have been stable ...
mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.
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Originally posted by Ignorant Roy View PostP5 omits that those possible worlds are the ones in which God does not foreknow you will choose X.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostP5 omits that those possible worlds are the ones in which God does not foreknow you will choose X.
Apparently that possibility didn't occur to you, even though you've mentioned it several times yourself. You truly are a blithering idiot.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
MM on climate change: Looking at the historical temperature data in my region over the past ten years shows that temperatures have been stable ...
mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.
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Originally posted by Ignorant Roy View PostApparently that possibility didn't occur to you, even though you've mentioned it several times yourself.
Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostIt only seems that way to you because dont understand orb.c are not trying to understand what I have said. But to be clear i am not conceding anything. You dont have a means to put limits on how God might know the future. Your argument is completely dependent on you being able to identify all posible means of God knowing the future. And further that those means ALL result in forcing the foreseen result. To assume you know all possible mechanisms for God knowing the future is just folly.
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostThis is another one of those times when I'm just going to sit back and wait for for the low-wattage lightbulb in your head to flicker on.
Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
MM on climate change: Looking at the historical temperature data in my region over the past ten years shows that temperatures have been stable ...
mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostLike I said, you are very confused, Sparko. Either that or you have a terrible reading comprehension problem. I know it's what you said, that's why I explained to you why what you said contradicts your own notion of the co-existence of foreknowledge and free will. If there is a you already existing in 2025, or if god can observe 2025, then 2025 already exists in some sense. That means you will not be travelling into the future, it means that you're already there, and have always been there since the beginning of creation. B-theory of time. Therefore, no free will. So, it is you who need understand other peoples views, if you are capable of it, instead of acting like a moron and burning strawman arguments and making idiotic objections.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostThat is exactly your problem, and you continue to prove that every time you post.
You can't even consider the other person's viewpoint without burning a strawman version of what they say.
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