Announcement

Collapse

Deeper Waters Forum Guidelines

Notice – The ministries featured in this section of TheologyWeb are guests of this site and in some cases not bargaining for the rough and tumble world of debate forums, though sometimes they are. Additionally, this area is frequented and highlighted for guests who also very often are not acclimated to debate fora. As such, the rules of conduct here will be more strict than in the general forum. This will be something within the discretion of the Moderators and the Ministry Representative, but we simply ask that you conduct yourselves in a manner considerate of the fact that these ministries are our invited guests. You can always feel free to start a related thread in general forum without such extra restrictions. Thank you.

Deeper Waters is founded on the belief that the Christian community has long been in the shallow end of Christianity while there are treasures of the deep waiting to be discovered. Too many in the shallow end are not prepared when they go out beyond those waters and are quickly devoured by sharks. We wish to aid Christians to equip them to navigate the deeper waters of the ocean of truth and come up with treasure in the end.

We also wish to give special aid to those often neglected, that is, the disabled community. This is especially so since our founders are both on the autism spectrum and have a special desire to reach those on that spectrum. While they are a special emphasis, we seek to help others with any disability realize that God can use them and that they are as the Psalmist says, fearfully and wonderfully made.

General TheologyWeb forum rules: here.
See more
See less

Should The Word of God Be Clear?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Should The Word of God Be Clear?

    Why isn't the message obvious to us?

    Link

    ----

    Should the Bible always be easy to understand? Let's plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

    There are two people that are exactly opposite in their outlooks. These will be your usual run of the mill atheist who thinks everything in the Bible is a bunch of nonsense. On the opposite side is your average fundamentalist Christian who thinks everything in the Bible is true. These two have something in common normally.

    They both think that if the Bible is the Word of God, it will be clear.

    And clear, what does that mean? Well, it means that they as a modern Western 21st century reader should understand the text. One difference might be the latter group thinks all you need is the Holy Spirit and you can understand the text.

    Sadly, this idea is never really questioned. An interesting point about this is that this is not a historical objection to Christianity. It's a theological objection. Yes. Even an atheist has a theology. If you have some ideas about what God should be like if He exists, you have a theology.

    Why should this be true? Isn't it rather arrogant of us to think that the God of the universe should write a book thousands of years ago that would be geared directly towards our time? Shouldn't it be understandable more by the people of the very time reading it?

    But isn't God supposed to transcend cultures? Isn't His truth for all people?

    Yes. Of course. However, not all cultures are identical nor will they be. All cultures have a different idea of what clear is. What is clear to us might not be clear to a 16th century Japanese person.

    If we look at the Bible, even Jesus speaking in His own time was not clear to His contemporaries. In 1 Peter, we're told that angels longed to understand what was being prophesied in the Bible. The prophets themselves did not know for certain what it was that they were saying would happen. They were just the messengers.

    Why would God do things this way? Why would He not make it easy?

    Maybe because easy isn't the goal. God doesn't want us to treat Him like an answer to a trivia game. God wants us to treat Him as a person that is worth knowing. Consider you're walking down the street as a single person and you think you see the most awesome person of the opposite sex. If you really want that person, you know what you will do? You will work to pursue them and win their heart and it might not be easy, but if you want the prize, you will do it.

    Job speaks about wisdom and when it does, it starts with talking about a place where precious metals like silver are mined. If you want those metals, you have to work hard for them. Most anything we really want in life we have to work for. If you want to be physically fit, you have to work out at a gym. If you want to be a scholar, you have to work to get a Ph.D. If you want to be even good at a video game, you have to work really hard at it.

    If something is easy to come by, it's nothing really worthwhile for the most part. Even in marriage, if a man wants to have a "lucky" evening with his wife, he knows he has to put forward effort on his part, which might be washing the dishes or cleaning a toilet or anything else. If he values the prize, he will do the work.

    Often, it's as if atheists think God just wants to convince them of His existence, but that's treating Him like a trivia game. If that's not His goal, it's not a surprise that He doesn't just suddenly appear before people. I think He's much more like many of us who want to be wanted. We want someone to want us because of who we are. No one likes to feel used.

    If we want to understand Scripture then, we might just have to work on it. That's not the case for everything in Scripture. Some messages I think are simple. Not all are. Many of them have several complexities to them that we don't immediately grasp. If we care about truth, we will do the work.

    If an atheist thinks that God should be clear, it's up to them to back that. God never encourages laziness in Scripture. It's up to them to show why He would outside of Scripture.

    In Christ,
    Nick Peters

  • #2
    Fundamentalists - whether Christian or atheist (for Fundamentalism is not confined to Evangelical Protestantism, though EPism created the mould for Fundamentalism) - also share an attitude of literary Philistinism. This manifests itself in an impatience with the idea that the Bible does not “say what it means, and mean what it says”. One of the great advantages of the historical criticism of the Bible is, that it encourages the reader to take seriously what the ascertainable text is likely to have meant in its original setting; one is not encouraged to impose a conceptual grid on it. Instead, one is confronted with the text.

    ISTM that this is a wholly valid, and quintessentially Protestant, way to encounter the text; and that Protestants should therefore welcome such an approach.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
      Why isn't the message obvious to us?

      Link

      ----

      Should the Bible always be easy to understand? Let's plunge into the Deeper Waters and find out.

      There are two people that are exactly opposite in their outlooks. These will be your usual run of the mill atheist who thinks everything in the Bible is a bunch of nonsense. On the opposite side is your average fundamentalist Christian who thinks everything in the Bible is true. These two have something in common normally.

      They both think that if the Bible is the Word of God, it will be clear.

      And clear, what does that mean? Well, it means that they as a modern Western 21st century reader should understand the text. One difference might be the latter group thinks all you need is the Holy Spirit and you can understand the text.

      Sadly, this idea is never really questioned. An interesting point about this is that this is not a historical objection to Christianity. It's a theological objection. Yes. Even an atheist has a theology. If you have some ideas about what God should be like if He exists, you have a theology.

      Why should this be true? Isn't it rather arrogant of us to think that the God of the universe should write a book thousands of years ago that would be geared directly towards our time? Shouldn't it be understandable more by the people of the very time reading it?

      But isn't God supposed to transcend cultures? Isn't His truth for all people?

      Yes. Of course. However, not all cultures are identical nor will they be. All cultures have a different idea of what clear is. What is clear to us might not be clear to a 16th century Japanese person.

      If we look at the Bible, even Jesus speaking in His own time was not clear to His contemporaries. In 1 Peter, we're told that angels longed to understand what was being prophesied in the Bible. The prophets themselves did not know for certain what it was that they were saying would happen. They were just the messengers.

      Why would God do things this way? Why would He not make it easy?

      Maybe because easy isn't the goal. God doesn't want us to treat Him like an answer to a trivia game. God wants us to treat Him as a person that is worth knowing. Consider you're walking down the street as a single person and you think you see the most awesome person of the opposite sex. If you really want that person, you know what you will do? You will work to pursue them and win their heart and it might not be easy, but if you want the prize, you will do it.

      Job speaks about wisdom and when it does, it starts with talking about a place where precious metals like silver are mined. If you want those metals, you have to work hard for them. Most anything we really want in life we have to work for. If you want to be physically fit, you have to work out at a gym. If you want to be a scholar, you have to work to get a Ph.D. If you want to be even good at a video game, you have to work really hard at it.

      If something is easy to come by, it's nothing really worthwhile for the most part. Even in marriage, if a man wants to have a "lucky" evening with his wife, he knows he has to put forward effort on his part, which might be washing the dishes or cleaning a toilet or anything else. If he values the prize, he will do the work.

      Often, it's as if atheists think God just wants to convince them of His existence, but that's treating Him like a trivia game. If that's not His goal, it's not a surprise that He doesn't just suddenly appear before people. I think He's much more like many of us who want to be wanted. We want someone to want us because of who we are. No one likes to feel used.

      If we want to understand Scripture then, we might just have to work on it. That's not the case for everything in Scripture. Some messages I think are simple. Not all are. Many of them have several complexities to them that we don't immediately grasp. If we care about truth, we will do the work.

      If an atheist thinks that God should be clear, it's up to them to back that. God never encourages laziness in Scripture. It's up to them to show why He would outside of Scripture.

      In Christ,
      Nick Peters
      I'm sure if god, rather than man, actually wrote the bible, it would be plenty clear. I'm sure too that he/she could also make its existnce known to us instead of demanding faith in ancient claims. Dumb, dumb, dumb!

      Comment


      • #4
        And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
        https://biblehub.com/luke/8-10.htm

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by arnoldo View Post
          And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
          https://biblehub.com/luke/8-10.htm
          And isn't that ridiculous. Rather idiotic of a god who is trying to save man to hide from them what he wants them to see. "The gospel according to Thomas said the Kingdom of heaven is spread across the face of the earth and men don't see it." Now that makes sense. Life is short, stop worrying about whether there is an after world, open your eyes and start enjoying the world you actually live in.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by JimL View Post
            . . open your eyes and start enjoying the world you actually live in.
            Now you had to get all philosophical on me.

            Comment

            Related Threads

            Collapse

            Topics Statistics Last Post
            Started by Apologiaphoenix, 03-15-2024, 10:19 PM
            14 responses
            75 views
            1 like
            Last Post rogue06
            by rogue06
             
            Started by Apologiaphoenix, 03-13-2024, 10:13 PM
            6 responses
            61 views
            0 likes
            Last Post Apologiaphoenix  
            Started by Apologiaphoenix, 03-12-2024, 09:36 PM
            1 response
            23 views
            0 likes
            Last Post rogue06
            by rogue06
             
            Started by Apologiaphoenix, 03-11-2024, 10:19 PM
            0 responses
            22 views
            2 likes
            Last Post Apologiaphoenix  
            Started by Apologiaphoenix, 03-08-2024, 11:59 AM
            7 responses
            55 views
            0 likes
            Last Post whag
            by whag
             
            Working...
            X