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Jerry Falwell, Jr. vs. Jesus

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    Yes it does. He's speaking of secular governments, not individual generosity. A poor government simply can't help its poor citizens. That's basic economic fact.
    Poor government meaning what? Electing the wealthy doesn't translate into good public policy.

    I don't like the quote, even in context. He may be speaking of government, practical policy, and it's within his right to have opinions about that. But he's explicitly making a Christian argument in the process, which I don't agree is justifiable. A homeless man giving a starving child a loaf of bread is giving as worthy a gift as a wealthy donor, even if it doesn't necessarily have great societal impact. I don't know if he means this, but he seems to be suggesting that the wealthy are better people, better Christians, than the poor - and that I definitely have a problem with.

    I also don't agree that a candidate's personal life has no impact on whether or not we should vote for them, but I wouldn't really care if he would just find a less explicitly 'biblical' way to make that case.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
      Yes it does. He's speaking of secular governments, not individual generosity. A poor government simply can't help its poor citizens. That's basic economic fact.
      Yeah. He's basically saying that we should vote for people who can improve the economy, so we can get more people jobs and provide more assistance. It is not in the least bit analogous to saying that the poor aren't generous or that the widow's mite doesn't matter.
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
      sigpic
      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by LeaC View Post
        Poor government meaning what? Electing the wealthy doesn't translate into good public policy.
        Poor government meaning lack of proper resources to pay for the things a government should. As opposed to a rich government that can pay for them.

        I don't like the quote, even in context. He may be speaking of government, practical policy, and it's within his right to have opinions about that. But he's explicitly making a Christian argument in the process, which I don't agree is justifiable.
        To which he PURPOSEFULLY separated the spiritual discussion from the earthly discussion. He's not saying Christians should not be generous, nor is he saying the giving of individual poor isn't a spiritual matter, and worthy of praise. He's saying that a government needs money to be able to effectively help the poor, and if it lacks it, they are not very able to assist.

        A homeless man giving a starving child a loaf of bread is giving as worthy a gift as a wealthy donor, even if it doesn't necessarily have great societal impact.
        No one is debating that. Jerry even says so. He's saying that in an "earthly kingdom", money is required to make a wider impact.

        I don't know if he means this, but he seems to be suggesting that the wealthy are better people, better Christians, than the poor - and that I definitely have a problem with.
        That's not even remotely what he is talking about.

        I also don't agree that a candidate's personal life has no impact on whether or not we should vote for them, but I wouldn't really care if he would just find a less explicitly 'biblical' way to make that case.
        I am with you there. But I get what Jerry is saying too.
        That's what
        - She

        Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
        - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

        I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
        - Stephen R. Donaldson

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        • #19
          What he could have said if he wanted to make that sort of point is that a poor population isn't going to create jobs. Instead, we have this.

          The argument about personal life not mattering seems so weird given that his father famously excoriated the personal life of Jimmy Carter and maintained it mattered. But he was a different man.
          Last edited by KingsGambit; 01-02-2019, 03:35 PM.
          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            I've found that a number of sites will allow you in a couple to half a dozen times, then start shaking you done for cash.
            The New York Times and several others permits you to access their site a few times each month but the Washington Post and Wall Street Journal allow no access whatsoever.

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
              Poor government meaning lack of proper resources to pay for the things a government should. As opposed to a rich government that can pay for them.
              So, greater GDP, or higher taxes?

              Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
              To which he PURPOSEFULLY separated the spiritual discussion from the earthly discussion. He's not saying Christians should not be generous, nor is he saying the giving of individual poor isn't a spiritual matter, and worthy of praise. He's saying that a government needs money to be able to effectively help the poor, and if it lacks it, they are not very able to assist.
              Right, I understand that's what his intention was, but it was poorly phrased.

              Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
              That's not even remotely what he is talking about.
              It's the conflation between America, the country, helping people elsewhere and individual poor people not being able to donate more that bothers me. Nations vs private actions, it doesn't work as a metaphor. When it comes to choosing politicians, it's not a choice between an immoral rich person with great business sense and a virtuous pauper with terrible policies. At least in the case of the President, it's two wealthy people of questionable morality and vaguely defined goals arguing that the other person's crimes are worse. I'm sure he isn't trying to say wealth is better, but the comparison doesn't follow from the argument.

              Comment


              • #22
                Since I am somehow inexplicably able to penetrate WaPo's force-field, I will quote and comment on a few portions besides what Bill the Cat provided in Reply 10.

                Source: WaPo

                You said recently that conservatives and Christians should stop electing nice guys. Aren’t Christians supposed to be nice guys?

                Of course, of course. But that’s where people get confused. I almost laugh out loud when I hear Democrats saying things like, “Jesus said suffer the little children to come unto me” and try to use that as the reason we should open up our borders.

                It’s such a distortion of the teachings of Jesus to say that what he taught us to do personally — to love our neighbors as ourselves, help the poor — can somehow be imputed on a nation. Jesus never told Caesar how to run Rome. He went out of his way to say that’s the earthly kingdom, I’m about the heavenly kingdom and I’m here to teach you how to treat others, how to help others, but when it comes to serving your country, you render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s. It’s a distortion of the teaching of Christ to say Jesus taught love and forgiveness and therefore the United States as a nation should be loving and forgiving, and just hand over everything we have to every other part of the world. That’s not what Jesus taught. You almost have to believe that this is a theocracy to think that way, to think that public policy should be dictated by the teachings of Jesus.

                So, the government you want is one free of religious association?

                Yes. The government should be led by somebody who is going to do what’s in the best interest of the government and its people. And I believe that’s what Jesus thought, too.

                © Copyright Original Source



                This part above is foundational to the article as a whole.


                Source: WaPo

                You pushed for national leaders to use the term “radical Islamic terrorism” when describing Muslims who are terrorists. Should leaders call it “white supremacist terrorism” when we have violent acts by white supremacists in this country?

                Sure, if a terrorist is someone who is trying to overthrow a political regime. I guess it depends on what your definition of terrorism is. Anybody who kills anybody else or commits violence against anybody else because of their race is horrible. It’s just as bad as the 9/11 attack.

                © Copyright Original Source



                This is good, except he should have gone out of his way to include Antifa as terrorists. Wuss.


                Source: WaPo

                You and other white evangelical leaders have strongly supported President Trump. What about him exemplifies Christianity and earns him your support?

                What earns him my support is his business acumen. Our country was so deep in debt and so mismanaged by career politicians that we needed someone who was not a career politician, but someone who’d been successful in business to run the country like a business. That’s the reason I supported him.

                © Copyright Original Source



                His reasons are not the same as mine, but they are fine.

                Notice he did NOT claim that anything about Trump "exemplifies Christianity." At this point, I will again bring up an underused point that I have not noticed anyone else addressing: If "exemplifying Christianity" is important, Christians would not vote for a pseudo-Christian cultist such as Romney or any other Mormon.


                Source: WaPo

                Is there anything President Trump could do that would endanger that support from you or other evangelical leaders?

                No.

                That’s the shortest answer we’ve had so far.

                Only because I know that he only wants what’s best for this country, and I know anything he does, it may not be ideologically “conservative,” but it’s going to be what’s best for this country, and I can’t imagine him doing anything that’s not good for the country.

                © Copyright Original Source



                The unqualified "No" is astonishingly stupid. I don't *expect* him to do any such thing, but if, e.g., he did something like diddling a young intern with a cigar during his Presidency, I would totally abandon him and call for his resignation, and I hope all Evangelicals would do likewise.


                Source: WaPo

                Is it hypocritical for evangelical leaders to support a leader who has advocated violence and who has committed adultery and lies often? I understand that a person can be forgiven their sins, but should that person be leading the country?

                When Jesus said we’re all sinners, he really meant all of us, everybody. I don’t think you can choose a president based on their personal behavior because even if you choose the one that you think is the most decent — let’s say you decide Mitt Romney. Nobody could be a more decent human being, better family man. But there might be things that he’s done that we just don’t know about. So you don’t choose a president based on how good they are; you choose a president based on what their policies are. That’s why I don’t think it’s hypocritical.

                There’s two kingdoms. There’s the earthly kingdom and the heavenly kingdom. In the heavenly kingdom the responsibility is to treat others as you’d like to be treated. In the earthly kingdom, the responsibility is to choose leaders who will do what’s best for your country. Think about it. Why have Americans been able to do more to help people in need around the world than any other country in history? It’s because of free enterprise, freedom, ingenuity, entrepreneurism and wealth. A poor person never gave anyone a job. A poor person never gave anybody charity, not of any real volume. It’s just common sense to me.

                © Copyright Original Source



                This is the portion previously cited. I'm disappointed that he missed an excellent opportunity to denigrate Romney's religion. (I am mainly in favor of doing so in cases where it is one that pretends to be Christian.)

                It honestly baffles me that people insist on imposing Mark 12 / Luke 21 on this. He is not denigrating poor people, he is advocating for an economy that reduces their number.
                Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                Beige Federalist.

                Nationalist Christian.

                "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                Justice for Matthew Perna!

                Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                Comment


                • #23
                  I can read the Washington Post Rogue.
                  A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
                  George Bernard Shaw

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Catholicity View Post
                    I can read the Washington Post Rogue.
                    Thank a teacher!



                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Catholicity View Post
                      I can read the Washington Post Rogue.
                      What is the Washington Post Rogue?
                      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                      sigpic
                      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                        What is the Washington Post Rogue?
                        It is what is left after rogue got done with it. It's post Rogue. PR.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          It is what is left after rogue got done with it. It's post Rogue. PR.
                          Ah, scattered ashes.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            Ah, scattered ashes.
                            In that case, reading it is quite a feat!
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                            sigpic
                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                            Comment

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