Romney on Trump

[JimL]

You seem to have given in completely to the "us vs. them" mentality that has become the norm today. In some respects, you have adopted Trump's political model. You might want to consider just how much you want to be what you claim to loathe.

Well, star isn't really all that far off though carp, as you have admitted yourself republicans are a pretty corrupt and undemocratic bunch right now.

[Cow Poke]

As for the Republican Party, I hope it someday re-finds it's heart. What it has become is a travesty of what the Republican Party used to stand for.

Replace the word 'Republican' with 'Democratic', and the statement is just as true.

[carpedm9587]

Well, star isn't really all that far off though carp, as you have admitted yourself republicans are a pretty corrupt and undemocratic bunch right now.

Both parties have problems with corruption, Jim. But I do agree that the Republican apples have fallen pretty far from their tree.

[carpedm9587]

Replace the word 'Republican' with 'Democratic', and the statement is just as true.

On that we disagree. While the Democrats are a disorganized bunch, and they are pretty bad at messaging, they are not putting into office candidates like Trump. I am aware the right sees Clinton in those terms, but I find there is no comparison between the two. My primary concern about the Democrats, right now, is that they will fail to coalesce as a party and instead trip all over themselves and give Trump another 4 years in office. It seems pretty clear at this point that the Democrats are the only hope for removing that travesty from office. The Republicans are too enamored of him to consider his replacement. "Trolling" has become mainstream.

[Charles]

On that we disagree. While the Democrats are a disorganized bunch, and they are pretty bad at messaging, they are not putting into office candidates like Trump. I am aware the right sees Clinton in those terms, but I find there is no comparison between the two. My primary concern about the Democrats, right now, is that they will fail to coalesce as a party and instead trip all over themselves and give Trump another 4 years in office. It seems pretty clear at this point that the Democrats are the only hope for removing that travesty from office. The Republicans are too enamored of him to consider his replacement. "Trolling" has become mainstream.

Which is why the idea that you somehow must support democrats, must be liberal, must be this or that if you dislike Trump is such a naive idea. First of all, reality generally is not that simple. Second, current Republicans are finding themselves in a moral crisis. Some of them are of course yet to realize it, some are still compromising. However, basic Republican values are lost with Trump, so you don’t need to be a democrat, liberal or whatever to disagree with him. You can simply hold on to basic values such as truth, decency, honesty, family values and the like in order to disagree with him.

[carpedm9587]

Which is why the idea that you somehow must support democrats, must be liberal, must be this or that if you dislike Trump is such a naive idea. First of all, reality generally is not that simple. Second, current Republicans are finding themselves in a moral crisis. Some of them are of course yet to realize it, some are still compromising. However, basic Republican values are lost with Trump, so you don’t need to be a democrat, liberal or whatever to disagree with him. You can simply hold on to basic values such as truth, decency, honesty, family values and the like in order to disagree with him.

From my perspective - the Democratic party has a (generally) good message supported by a majority of Americans, but are very bad on delivering the message and delivering the goods. Republicans, on the other hand, are good at messaging (Trump is borderline brilliant at playing the media) - but they have a bad message that only a minority of Americans support. To add to that problem, they have Trump at the head slathering out promises they cannot keep. If the Democrats are smart, they'll take a page from Reagan's playbook for the 2020 election and ask the people to ask themselves if they are better off after 4 years of Trump. The data shows that the majority of people are NOT better off. The ones truly enjoying increased income and wealth are, once again, at the top of the financial food chain. There are a few isolated pockets of improvement, but most Americans are not doing better under Trump.

[Cow Poke]

On that we disagree. While the Democrats are a disorganized bunch, and they are pretty bad at messaging, they are not putting into office candidates like Trump....

Oh, come on... they used to be the "God and Country" party --- now they're the "anything goes and open borders" party.

[Cow Poke]

From my perspective - the Democratic party has a (generally) good message....

What is their message, Carpe, and for extra points, show at least three prominent Democrats attempting to communicate that message.

[rogue06]

What is their message, Carpe, and for extra points, show at least three prominent Democrats attempting to communicate that message.

"Impeach Trump" seems to be the one thing that unites them

[carpedm9587]

Oh, come on... they used to be the "God and Country" party --- now they're the "anything goes and open borders" party.

No. That is a pretty broad, and unwarranted description. If 36% of registered democrats want open borders, that leaves 64% that don't. And "open borders" is not a Democratic party platform plank. It never has been. And it is nowhere near what they are calling for. You're buying into right-wing meme's, CP.

[carpedm9587]

What is their message, Carpe, and for extra points, show at least three prominent Democrats attempting to communicate that message.

There are many elements to the Democratic message (which is part of the problem). Lately, some of the more prominent ones are:

- Universal healthcare
- Working to narrow the income and wealth gap
- Prioritizing the environment and addressing climate change
- Responsible American security (internal and external)
- Bringing control to gun proliferation and reduction in gun violence (this one they are less unified and consistent on)

You can find their entire list here.

As for who is preaching it, it's pretty much the entire slate of Democratic leaders (e.g., Shumer, Pelosi) as well as many existing government representatives (e.g., Sanders, Harris, Warren) and the growing field of 2020 candidates (e.g., O'Rourke, Biden) and former leaders (e.g., O'bama, Kerry).

[carpedm9587]

"Impeach Trump" seems to be the one thing that unites them

It actually doesn't. Indeed, it's a theme that divides them. Pelosi and the "old guard" recognize the folly of wasting political capital on impeachment, and Pelosi has repeatedly said that impeachment should not be done for political reasons. It's the furthest left members of the party that are calling for impeachment, and submitting articles. Many Democrats, and most liberal/moderate independents recognize that the Democrats need to drop impeachment until there is solid evidence to work with, put their heads down, and put forward bills designed to relieve the people in our country that have been left behind by Trump, and demonstrate what they will do should they be given control again in 2020.

[rogue06]

On that we disagree. While the Democrats are a disorganized bunch, and they are pretty bad at messaging, they are not putting into office candidates like Trump. I am aware the right sees Clinton in those terms, but I find there is no comparison between the two.

Agreed. She was worse.

[carpedm9587]

Agreed. She was worse.

Your opinion is noted. I don't agree. I find Trump to be worse by pretty much every conceivable metric. But that doesn't mean I think she was the best choice for the role either. Just the better between the two. There are many others I would have preferred over either of them.

[Starlight]

You seem to have given in completely to the "us vs. them" mentality that has become the norm today.

There's a reason it's become the norm for the US. One side is right and the other side is brainwashed.

I find your both-sides-ism tiring and boring. As a matter of basic factual reality, some people can be right about things and some people can be wrong about things. That's just how the world works. And, in fact, someone who is right about one thing is more likely to be right about others, and someone who is wrong about one things is more likely to be wrong about others, because the underlying causes (level of education, competence in logical thinking, knowledge about the world, reliability of news sources followed by them, knowledgeably of people around them etc) are still in play. Thinking that everyone must be equally right just because it gives you warm fuzzies to think that, is silly.

In some respects, you have adopted Trump's political model. You might want to consider just how much you want to be what you claim to loathe.

I don't understand what you are trying to say here. Trump is against people therefore I'm not allowed to be? Trump didn't invent that concept, and I'm not under any obligation to be an exact mirror opposite of Trump.