Originally posted by Same Hakeem
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Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Who raised Jesus from the dead?
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Originally posted by JimLamebrain View PostIs Jesus in the father, or is the father in Jesus?
John 14:11 (this is Jesus speaking), "I am in the Father and the Father is in me."Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostAre you illiterate? The answer is in the Bible.
John 14:11 (this is Jesus speaking), "I am in the Father and the Father is in me."
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Originally posted by Same Hakeem View PostJesus proved in John 17:21 that being one with the Father does not make Jesus God in nature becsuse Jesus asked the Father for the disciples "may they also be one in us"
Jesus saying "the Father is in me and I am in the Father" does not make Jesus God in nature because Jesus said to the Father in John 17:23 about the disciples "I am in them and you are in me"
And since you mention John 17, did you bother reading the whole chapter? How about verse 5 where he says, "And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed." This brings the book of John full circle to the opening passage, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
And while we're at it, let's look at the entirety of verses 20 through 23 to see what Jesus is really saying:
"I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me."
Jesus is praying for the unity of believers, that all believers may be of one mind and spirit, just as Jesus and the Father are one. It requires a degree of illiteracy to read this passage as saying that Jesus is not divine.Last edited by Mountain Man; 12-29-2019, 08:18 PM.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by JimLamebrain View PostWell, gramatically speaking, that's a contradiction. For instance, if like you, one is in a box, the box can't also be said to be in him.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Same Hakeem View PostThough John makes Jesus divine, John denies Jesus and the Holy Spirit to be "the only true God" as Jesus addressed the Father in name as "the only true God" in John 17:1-3.
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Originally posted by JimLamebrain View PostBut that doesn't change the distinction between them. It wouldn't make them three persons in one god, it would make them three distinct beings with the same basic nature, or essence.
"I am in the Father, and the Father is in me."
"I and the Father are one."
"Whoever has seen me has seen the Father."
"Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostAre you illiterate? The answer is in the Bible.
John 14:11 (this is Jesus speaking), "I am in the Father and the Father is in me."
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostDo you interpret your own Muslim scriptures with the same reckless disregard for context, picking and choosing whatever you think supports your argument in the moment? Again, look at how the people Jesus was addressing reacted to his statements: they accused him of blasphemy and tried to execute him because they recognized that he was claiming divinity.
And since you mention John 17, did you bother reading the whole chapter? How about verse 5 where he says, "And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed." This brings the book of John full circle to the opening passage, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
And while we're at it, let's look at the entirety of verses 20 through 23 to see what Jesus is really saying:
"I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me."
Jesus is praying for the unity of believers, that all believers may be of one mind and spirit, just as Jesus and the Father are one. It requires a degree of illiteracy to read this passage as saying that Jesus is not divine.
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Originally posted by Same Hakeem View PostJesus saying "I am in the Father and the Father is in me" does not prove Jesus is God in nature because Jesus said to the Father regarding the disciples "I am in them and you are in me" in John 17:23.
The former quote actually suggests just the opposite, i.e. that they are not one being, since the eternal father can't give anything to an eternal son.Last edited by JimL; 12-30-2019, 04:02 PM.
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Originally posted by Same Hakeem View PostJesus existing before Abraham or even the world does not prove Jesus is God in nature because according to Hebrew 7:3 Melchizedek is "Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest forever."
Some have suggested that Melchizedek was a preincarnate appearance of the Son of God. As this passage indicates, however, Melchizedek was not in fact the Son of God but someone resembling the Son of God (literally, "having been made like the Son of God"). He is without father or mother or genealogy probably means simply that this information is not given anywhere in scripture (in contrast to the Levitical priests, whose genealogies are recorded). The next phrase (neither beginning of days nor end of life) should probably be understood in the same way. The OT mentions no end to his priesthood. In that sense he continues a priest forever. Hebrews seems to view Melchizedek as an ordinary man. He was a "type" or foreshadowing of Christ, who is truly king of righteousness and who brings true peace.
The last sentence contains a footnote referring to the commentary for Romans 5:14 which says:
Adam is a type (that is, a model or pattern) of Christ. Both Adam and Christ are covenantal heads of the human race. All people are either "in Adam" or "in Christ". All are "in Adam" by physical birth, while only those who have placed their faith in Christ are "in" him.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostI keep telling you guys that you need to consult a decent Bible commentary, assuming you really want to understand the text. My ESV study Bible says the following about Hebrews 7:3 (emphasis in the original):
Some have suggested that Melchizedek was a preincarnate appearance of the Son of God. As this passage indicates, however, Melchizedek was not in fact the Son of God but someone resembling the Son of God (literally, "having been made like the Son of God"). He is without father or mother or genealogy probably means simply that this information is not given anywhere in scripture (in contrast to the Levitical priests, whose genealogies are recorded). The next phrase (neither beginning of days nor end of life) should probably be understood in the same way. The OT mentions no end to his priesthood. In that sense he continues a priest forever. Hebrews seems to view Melchizedek as an ordinary man. He was a "type" or foreshadowing of Christ, who is truly king of righteousness and who brings true peace.
The last sentence contains a footnote referring to the commentary for Romans 5:14 which says:
Adam is a type (that is, a model or pattern) of Christ. Both Adam and Christ are covenantal heads of the human race. All people are either "in Adam" or "in Christ". All are "in Adam" by physical birth, while only those who have placed their faith in Christ are "in" him.
Moreover, according toHebrews 7:8, he is still alive.
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Originally posted by Same Hakeem View PostPlease stick to the text of Hebrews 7:3. If we stick to "without father, without mother, having neither beginning of days nor end of life", then it means, can only mean, God the Father, who is without beginning or end.
Moreover, according toHebrews 7:8, he is still alive.
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