Originally posted by JimLamebrain
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Apologetics 301 Guidelines
If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Who raised Jesus from the dead?
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI don't get into the business of telling anyone who is and is not a real <insert belief system here>. It's not my concern. As for myself, depending on their definition of "Christian," I was a "real Christian" to some, and not to others. For example, if someone believes "once saved always saved," then I was either never a Christian, or I still am. Given my current beliefs, the latter is a hard case to make, so the former is more likely (to them). If "believing in the bodily resurrection" is necessary (as it apparently is for Chrawnus), then I never met that definition of an "actual Christian."
Getting into an extended discussion as to whether or not I was an "actual Christian" 30+ years ago doesn't seem to me to be a very good use of my time. At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostFor a former Christian, you're pretty terrible at explaining actual Christian beliefs. Then again, belief in a bodily resurrection is pretty fundamental. If you never had that, I can't say I'm at all surprised at your having fallen away from whatever beliefs you did hold.
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostFor a former Christian, you're pretty terrible at explaining actual Christian beliefs.
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostThen again, belief in a bodily resurrection is pretty fundamental. If you never had that, I can't say I'm at all surprised at your having fallen away from whatever beliefs you did hold.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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The Trinity is one of the most versatile gods known to man and just about any stunt is easy for Him.“I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
“And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
“not all there” - you know who you are
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Me: So - If Jesus was wholly man and wholly God, it seems that he would be radically different from any of his brothers.
Lecturer (Doctorate in Theology): That is correct.
Me: In that case, I'll have to black out Heb 2:17 from my copy of the Bible1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by firstfloor View PostThe Trinity is one of the most versatile gods known to man and just about any stunt is easy for Him.
But yes, there's not much, if anything, that is hard for God to accomplish.
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Originally posted by Christian3 View PostDoes this make sense?
https://carm.org/jesus-raise-himself
Did Jesus raise Himself from the grave or did God do it?
by Brad Huston
Before this question can be addressed directly, we must first agree upon what we mean when we say “God,” and we must agree upon the nature of Jesus. Jesus is, by His very nature, God (Phil. 2:6). “God” is not a person but a title given to the divine nature. There is only one God (Deut. 6:4, Is. 44:6)--one divine nature. However, God exists in three persons, the Trinity. The first person of the Trinity, whom Jesus called the Father, is often referred to as “God,” and rightly so--the Father is God (1 Pet. 1:2-3). However, people often confuse the title “God” as referring only to the Father. The second and third persons of the Trinity, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit are also God (Heb. 1:8, Acts 5:3-4). So, there is one God existing in three persons. These persons are all distinct (Matt. 3:16-17). They are all equally God. The divine nature cannot be subdivided; God’s nature is infinite--infinity cannot be subtracted from or added to.
Though there is one God in three persons, the person of Jesus Christ has two natures. He has the divine nature (as previously demonstrated), but He also has a human nature and is fully human. He was born (Matt. 2:1) and took on human flesh (John 1:14). He suffered physically and emotionally (Heb. 5:7-8). Even after His ascension, He is called “man” (1 Tim. 2:5-6). So, Jesus could operate out of His human nature or His divine nature. As a man, He ate (Luke 24:42-43). As God, He calmed the storm (Matt. 8:26). So, while Christ’s body was dead, He remained alive (since God cannot die). This should not be a great surprise since human souls remain while the body decays (2 Cor. 5:8). Jesus’ human soul remained in the way that all human souls do, while His divine substance remained unchanged (Mal. 3:6, Heb. 13:8).
So, would it have been possible that Jesus through His divine nature even while His human body lay dead could have displayed His power through resurrection? Absolutely. Jesus, speaking of His body said, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” (John 2:19) Certainly, it was “God” who raised His body (Rom. 10:9, 1 Pet. 1:21), and Jesus is God. But Scripture also teaches that the Father raised Him (Gal. 1:1; Eph. 1:17, 20). Even the Holy Spirit is said to have raised Him (Romans 8:11). So, the act of raising Jesus from the dead was not the operation merely of one person within the Trinity but was a cooperative act done by the power of the divine substance. The fact that the Bible teaches that God raised Jesus from the dead and that Jesus raised Himself is yet another testament to Christ’s divinity.
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostIt depends on what one means by "100% God and 100% human". I take it to mean that Jesus has 100% of the qualities necessary to be God, and 100% of the qualities necessary to be human.
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostMe: So - If Jesus was wholly man and wholly God, it seems that he would be radically different from any of his brothers.
Lecturer (Doctorate in Theology): That is correct.
Me: In that case, I'll have to black out Heb 2:17 from my copy of the Bible
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostHence Jesus is simultaneously 'fully God' and 'fully Man', i.e. a logical contradiction.
FWIW, IMHO, using a category like percentage to discuss the Incarnation is misleading, because the Incarnation is not quantitative. A lot of things are not - such as certainty.
The word “simultaneously” may need watching as well, because God, in Trinitarian theism, is not subject to time, nor qualified by it. We humans have to use “tensed” language, because we are subject to time, and qualified by it.Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 12-07-2019, 07:43 PM.
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Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View PostIn the interests of better understanding between atheists and Christians: where is the logical contradiction ?
FWIW, IMHO, using a category like percentage to discuss the Incarnation is misleading, because the Incarnation is not quantitative. A lot of things are not - such as certainty.
The word “simultaneously” may need watching as well, because God, in Trinitarian theism, is not subject to time, nor qualified by it. We humans have to use “tensed” language, because we are subject to time, and qualified by it.
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Speaking as one who --
-- has no formal training in "theology" or "apologetics"
-- has taken a total of two or maybe three philosophy classes, back in the early '80s
-- has never in my nearly 40 years as a believer been part of a church that holds "creeds" and "confessions" in high regard...
Discussions like this seem pointless and almost silly. There are certain things that Scripture says pretty clearly. Some of these are hard to reconcile at face value. Attempts to explain or reconcile them involve going beyond what Scripture actually says, and introducing a lot of speculation and magical theologisms like "hypostatic union." And to me, the worst part is that certain of these explanations are taken as uniquely authoritative orthodoxy, on par with the direct words of Scripture itself.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
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Originally posted by NorrinRadd View PostSpeaking as one who --
-- has no formal training in "theology" or "apologetics"
-- has taken a total of two or maybe three philosophy classes, back in the early '80s
-- has never in my nearly 40 years as a believer been part of a church that holds "creeds" and "confessions" in high regard...
Discussions like this seem pointless and almost silly. There are certain things that Scripture says pretty clearly. Some of these are hard to reconcile at face value. Attempts to explain or reconcile them involve going beyond what Scripture actually says, and introducing a lot of speculation and magical theologisms like "hypostatic union."
And to me, the worst part is that certain of these explanations are taken as uniquely authoritative orthodoxy, on par with the direct words of Scripture itself.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
sigpic
I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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