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Who raised Jesus from the dead?

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  • #61
    Apparently this is Tass and Jimmy's new debate strategy: to repeatedly make the same bald assertion without elaborating or interacting with counter arguments.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Tassman View Post
      The Doctrine itself implies that they are a logical contradiction. It states that God and Jesus are “Two whole perfect and distinct natures, the Godhead and manhood, inseparably joined together in one person”, i.e. a logical contradiction.

      One cannot reconcile being omniscient (divine) with not being omniscient (human) in one person. Ultimately it is simply a theological assertion believed by Christians as a revealed truth of the Church.
      "not being omniscient" isn't a necessary "quality" of being a human.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
        Apparently this is Tass and Jimmy's new debate strategy: to repeatedly make the same bald assertion without elaborating or interacting with counter arguments.
        New?
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
        sigpic
        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
          Apparently this is Tass and Jimmy's new debate strategy: to repeatedly make the same bald assertion without elaborating or interacting with counter arguments.
          That seems to have been their modus operandi for years now. Just repeat their argument over and over, ignoring any opposing view, until you get tired of arguing with a broken record and go away. Then they can declare victory in their own little minds.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
            Apparently this is Tass and Jimmy's new debate strategy: to repeatedly make the same bald assertion without elaborating or interacting with counter arguments.
            Not exactly "new" but what they've been doing all along.

            They are among those that believe that if they make an assertion that in and by itself counts as evidence and by simply repeating themselves they are providing corroborating evidence.

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
              "not being omniscient" isn't a necessary "quality" of being a human.
              That's not the argument. The Doctrine of the Hypostatic Union claims that Two whole perfect and distinct natures, the Godhead and manhood, are inseparably joined together in one person. That's fine as a theological statement to be believed as a matter of faith, but it remains a logical contradiction nevertheless.
              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                That's not the argument.
                If it's not the argument then why did you word it as if it was?

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                  That's not the argument. The Doctrine of the Hypostatic Union claims that Two whole perfect and distinct natures, the Godhead and manhood, are inseparably joined together in one person. That's fine as a theological statement to be believed as a matter of faith, but it remains a logical contradiction nevertheless.
                  And as those believers here on tweb make clear every day logical contradictions are no problem when it comes to faith.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                    If it's not the argument then why did you word it as if it was?
                    I worded it as posted, namely: "The Doctrine of the Hypostatic Union claims that two whole perfect and distinct natures, the Godhead and manhood, are inseparably joined together in one person"; it is a 'faith statement', not a logical one.


                    .
                    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                      I worded it as posted, namely: "The Doctrine of the Hypostatic Union claims that two whole perfect and distinct natures, the Godhead and manhood, are inseparably joined together in one person"; it is a 'faith statement', not a logical one.


                      .
                      After which you stated:

                      Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                      One cannot reconcile being omniscient (divine) with not being omniscient (human) in one person. Ultimately it is simply a theological assertion believed by Christians as a revealed truth of the Church.
                      Which heavily implies that you think the reason the Hypostatic Union is logically contradictory is because you believe the attributes of being God (such as omniscience) conflicts with the attributes of being human.

                      Which is silly of course, because the lack of something, such as omniscience, or omnipotence, isn't what makes humans humans. The only reason you believe God cannot assume a full human nature and still be fully God is because you wrongly assume that this is the case. If we take omniscience for example, it's not true at all that you can't reconcile being omniscient with being a human. The reason we as humans aren't omniscient isn't because we're humans, but because we're not God. If God chose to assume a human form there would be no conflict between His omniscience and any "non-omniscience" attribute intrinsic to humanity, simply because no such attribute exists that could come into conflict with His omniscience.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                        After which you stated:



                        Which heavily implies that you think the reason the Hypostatic Union is logically contradictory is because you believe the attributes of being God (such as omniscience) conflicts with the attributes of being human.
                        They are two totally different things and yet the doctrine specifically claims they are one, that’s the contradiction. "The Doctrine of the Hypostatic Union claims that two whole perfect and distinct natures, the Godhead and manhood, are inseparably joined together in one person". This is a logical contradiction; it is a 'faith statement', not a logical one.
                        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                          They are two totally different things and yet the doctrine specifically claims they are one, that’s the contradiction. "The Doctrine of the Hypostatic Union claims that two whole perfect and distinct natures, the Godhead and manhood, are inseparably joined together in one person". This is a logical contradiction; it is a 'faith statement', not a logical one.
                          No, the doctrine does not claim that at all. You will not find a single orthodox expression of the hypostatic union that states that the two natures are united into one (single nature), including the part from the Westminster Confession of Faith that you cited. The two natures are joined together in one single person (Jesus), but they're not "fused" together into one single nature.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                            No, the doctrine does not claim that at all. You will not find a single orthodox expression of the hypostatic union that states that the two natures are united into one (single nature), including the part from the Westminster Confession of Faith that you cited. The two natures are joined together in one single person (Jesus), but they're not "fused" together into one single nature.
                            I don't think that's what Tassman is trying to say. What you put in bold is Tassman's restatement of what follows; by "one" he obviously means "one person", not "one fused nature." I agree with him that the concept is not something which is amenable to rationalist logic. It is logically worked out from the consistent interpretation of scripture, and it is an article of faith that it is so without being able to understand precisely how it is so. God is, after all, ultimately beyond our limited human understanding.
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                            sigpic
                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                              I don't think that's what Tassman is trying to say. What you put in bold is Tassman's restatement of what follows; by "one" he obviously means "one person", not "one fused nature." I agree with him that the concept is not something which is amenable to rationalist logic. It is logically worked out from the consistent interpretation of scripture, and it is an article of faith that it is so without being able to understand precisely how it is so. God is, after all, ultimately beyond our limited human understanding.
                              Well, if that's what he's claiming (the bolded) then there's no contradiction at all involved. And yeah, I get that he's trying to restate what the WCF says, I'm saying that it seems like he doesn't even understand what he's citing.

                              I disagree that it's not amenable to "rationalist logic". That would mean that it would be possible to demonstrate that the concept involves a logical contradiction, something no one has ever been able to do. We might not be able to understand how it works, but that doesn't mean it goes contrary to logic.
                              Last edited by JonathanL; 01-16-2019, 07:17 PM.

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                                I disagree that it's not amenable to "rationalist logic". That would mean that it would be possible to demonstrate that the concept involves a logical contradiction, something no one has ever been able to do. We might not be able to understand how it works, but that doesn't mean it goes contrary to logic.
                                OBP is correct. Ultimately the status of being omniscient (Divine) with not being omniscient (human)cannot be logically reconciled. Believers can only understand as an article of faith how it can be true that Christ was at once both fully man and fully God. It is a revealed truth of the Church and does not conform to human logic. In short it is, for believers, a divine mystery to be accepted by faith.
                                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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