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Thread: Who raised Jesus from the dead?

  1. #121
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrawnus View Post
    Well, that's just the thing isn't it? I don't believe "finite knowledge" is an essential part of being human. It has never been part of my criteria for what constitutes human nature.
    I am aware of that. It cannot be and hold to the idea of the hypostatic union - it would create a contradiction. That's what this discussion is all about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrawnus View Post
    Well, that's not what's being said at all. It's not "can you accept the tenets of Christianity if you accept the tenets of Christianity?", but rather "Does this small detail make sense set against the backdrop of Christianity as a whole?".
    For me, the question is, "does this concept make rational sense."

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrawnus View Post
    Well, if I was "excluding the conflicts from [my] definition of 'human nature'" simply to get around issue you would have a point, but the thing is that I've never considered "finite knowledge" to be an essential part of human nature. It's not like I'm simply excluding it to win the argument.
    And yet - that's essentially what has happened. I don't think you're being dishonest, Chrawnus - I just think you're begging the question. Your description of "human nature" explicitly excludes aspects that are, IMO, very much part of the human experience and the human person - and it just happens to make room for your theological beliefs.

    I don't think you can posit that a finite being (I guess you say "created being") can be the repository of an infinity. It makes no sense. Our very being is an exercise in finitude. It is not separable from the human person.

    On that we appear to disagree. I'm not sure there is an evident way to resolve that disagreement.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  2. #122
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrawnus View Post
    It is begging the question, because it assumes that the mind must be bound by human physiology.
    Then it would be on you to show that it is not. The evidence available to me shows mind inextricably linked to brain. Alter the brain - and you alter the mind. Destroy the brain and you destroy the mind (and the life with it). We see this repeated over and over and over again throughout nature. Mind without brain is the stuff of fancy and fantasy.

    But if you have an avenue for showing that mind can exist without brain - then by all means present it. I tend to go where the evidence takes me.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  3. #123
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    I'll leave the last word to you.
    Just sayin'.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

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  4. #124
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Just sayin'.
    Yeah - my bad.

    I have too many discussions going, and I keep forgetting which one's I've disconnected from and which I have not. I probably should just unsubscribe when I say that - but then I don't see if someone else has posted and I don't read any of the follow-on posts. I do make an effort to read the follow-on comments, but then I forget if I've withdrawn and end up responding again.

    Not sure how to solve that. I suppose the easy way would be to just stop saying, "last word to you" and just stop responding when I have found the discussion repetitive or going nowhere. Maybe that's what I'll do.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  5. #125
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrawnus View Post
    Well, that's not what's being said at all. It's not "can you accept the tenets of Christianity if you accept the tenets of Christianity?", but rather "Does this small detail make sense set against the backdrop of Christianity as a whole?"
    It's all part of the process of evaluating the truth of a worldview. There are two steps: First, is the worldview internally consistent? In other words, if we assume its essential tenets are true, does this create a contradiction? The second step is testing its external consistency. In other words, do the essential tenets contradict what we see in the world around us?

    Atheists, in general, have their minds closed like a steel trap and are therefore incapable of taking the first step.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  6. Amen Chrawnus amen'd this post.
  7. #126
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Then it would be on you to show that it is not. The evidence available to me shows mind inextricably linked to brain. Alter the brain - and you alter the mind. Destroy the brain and you destroy the mind (and the life with it). We see this repeated over and over and over again throughout nature. Mind without brain is the stuff of fancy and fantasy.

    But if you have an avenue for showing that mind can exist without brain - then by all means present it. I tend to go where the evidence takes me.
    This, too, begs the question. Suppose you have a music player attached to speaker. You can damage the speaker and cause the music to sound distorted, or you can destroy the speaker and prevent the music from being heard. And yet the music still exists even if the device through which it is channeled is damaged or destroyed. So the question is, is the brain the source of the mind, or merely the conduit? Science can not answer that question, so I'm not sure what evidence you're basing your conclusion on.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  8. #127
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    This, too, begs the question. Suppose you have a music player attached to speaker. You can damage the speaker and cause the music to sound distorted, or you can destroy the speaker and prevent the music from being heard. And yet the music still exists even if the device through which it is channeled is damaged or destroyed. So the question is, is the brain the source of the mind, or merely the conduit?
    As best I can tell - the source. The music analogy is poorly constructed. The brain is not how mind is "expressed." We do that with our bodies. Our conscious choices are reflected in our activities. When they are not - there is no external manifestation of "mind," yet mind remains. We know that from our internal sense of mind. And we know that by a multitude of experiments that link the physical actions of "brain" to the experiences of "mind."

    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Science can not answer that question, so I'm not sure what evidence you're basing your conclusion on.
    Science can "answer" that question to the same degree it can "answer" any question: it can provide evidence and a "best explanation to date." Science is not ever definitive. It is never absolute. That is not how it works. If you need definitive and absolute, then you need to stay within the realm of religion and gods.

    I realize the inability of science to make absolute conclusions is a constant avenue through which the theist can muddy the waters and raise doubts. But that is not going to greatly influence someone who understands science. I'm OK with, "this appears to be the way it works, until and if we find other evidence."
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  9. #128
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    As best I can tell - the source. The music analogy is poorly constructed. The brain is not how mind is "expressed." We do that with our bodies. Our conscious choices are reflected in our activities. When they are not - there is no external manifestation of "mind," yet mind remains. We know that from our internal sense of mind. And we know that by a multitude of experiments that link the physical actions of "brain" to the experiences of "mind."



    Science can "answer" that question to the same degree it can "answer" any question: it can provide evidence and a "best explanation to date." Science is not ever definitive. It is never absolute. That is not how it works. If you need definitive and absolute, then you need to stay within the realm of religion and gods.

    I realize the inability of science to make absolute conclusions is a constant avenue through which the theist can muddy the waters and raise doubts. But that is not going to greatly influence someone who understands science. I'm OK with, "this appears to be the way it works, until and if we find other evidence."
    You spent half your post arguing the analogy instead of addressing the point, and then simply repeated your fallacy in the other half. The question of whether or not the mind exists separate from the brain is a metaphysical question far outside the boundaries of science. I never asked for absolute certainty (so nice straw man), but this is not something that science can give you even a "close enough" answer.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  10. Amen Chrawnus amen'd this post.
  11. #129
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    You spent half your post arguing the analogy instead of addressing the point,
    Yes - I think a poor analogy should be outlined for what it is. Yours was very poor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    and then simply repeated your fallacy in the other half. The question of whether or not the mind exists separate from the brain is a metaphysical question far outside the boundaries of science. I never asked for absolute certainty (so nice straw man), but this is not something that science can give you even a "close enough" answer.
    No. Mind and brain lie both within the bounds of science to explore. Yes - you can have a metaphysical discussion about some of the related issues - but the relationship between mind and brain has been explored and researched and tested many, many, many times and in many ways over the years.

    This is one of those philosophical issues that reminds me of that old saw that a philosopher will argue with you for an hour that the walls are not substantial, and then exit the room by way of the door. So...if you are as convinced as you seem to be that mind exists separately from brain, then I invite you to do a simple experiment and simply have someone dissect your brain. After all - it should have no impact on your mind, right? And you don't have to do the entire thing. Just have them muck around with the frontal cortex and remove most of it. That should leave your vital functions intact and you won't technically be dead or committing suicide. I know that is frowned upon by your faith.

    Somehow, I think you probably won't take me up on that. But when you do - I will be convinced that you actually BELIEVE mind is separate from brain.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  12. #130
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    All your experiment would prove is that the brain can be damaged. It wouldn't prove that the mind originates in the brain.

    And your suggestion that I effectively commit suicide in order to prove the sincerity of my beliefs is the sort of jackassery I've come to expect from Chuck or Jimmy. Needless to say, it doesn't improve my opinion of you.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  13. Amen Chrawnus amen'd this post.

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