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Thread: Who raised Jesus from the dead?

  1. #261
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Think in terms of essence rather than physicality.
    But that doesn't change the distinction between them. It wouldn't make them three persons in one god, it would make them three distinct beings with the same basic nature, or essence.

  2. #262
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Same Hakeem View Post
    Though John makes Jesus divine, John denies Jesus and the Holy Spirit to be "the only true God" as Jesus addressed the Father in name as "the only true God" in John 17:1-3.
    In his theology John is moving towards what was later formalized by the Church as the doctrine of the Holy Trinity - as is evident from the opening of his gospel and elsewhere in John. And the Holy Trinity renders communication between the persons of the Trinity rather confusing. Just how do “three coeternal consubstantial persons or hypostases of the one God” communicate among each other?
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  3. #263
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimLamebrain View Post
    But that doesn't change the distinction between them. It wouldn't make them three persons in one god, it would make them three distinct beings with the same basic nature, or essence.
    One being but three distinct persons who all share the same essential attributes.

    "I am in the Father, and the Father is in me."

    "I and the Father are one."

    "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father."

    "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  4. #264
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Are you illiterate? The answer is in the Bible.

    John 14:11 (this is Jesus speaking), "I am in the Father and the Father is in me."
    Jesus saying "I am in the Father and the Father is in me" does not prove Jesus is God in nature because Jesus said to the Father regarding the disciples "I am in them and you are in me" in John 17:23.

  5. #265
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Do you interpret your own Muslim scriptures with the same reckless disregard for context, picking and choosing whatever you think supports your argument in the moment? Again, look at how the people Jesus was addressing reacted to his statements: they accused him of blasphemy and tried to execute him because they recognized that he was claiming divinity.

    And since you mention John 17, did you bother reading the whole chapter? How about verse 5 where he says, "And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed." This brings the book of John full circle to the opening passage, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

    And while we're at it, let's look at the entirety of verses 20 through 23 to see what Jesus is really saying:

    "I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me."

    Jesus is praying for the unity of believers, that all believers may be of one mind and spirit, just as Jesus and the Father are one. It requires a degree of illiteracy to read this passage as saying that Jesus is not divine.
    Jesus existing before Abraham or even the world does not prove Jesus is God in nature because according to Hebrew 7:3 Melchizedek is "Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest forever."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Same Hakeem View Post
    Jesus saying "I am in the Father and the Father is in me" does not prove Jesus is God in nature because Jesus said to the Father regarding the disciples "I am in them and you are in me" in John 17:23.
    Also 17:22 supports that as well. - "And the glory thou gavest me, I have given them, that they may be one, even as we are one." The latter obviously doesn't mean that the "they" i.e. the disciples, are actual one and the same being. So neither should the fhe former be understood that way.
    The former quote actually suggests just the opposite, i.e. that they are not one being, since the eternal father can't give anything to an eternal son.
    Last edited by JimL; 12-30-2019 at 02:02 PM.

  7. #267
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Same Hakeem View Post
    Jesus existing before Abraham or even the world does not prove Jesus is God in nature because according to Hebrew 7:3 Melchizedek is "Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest forever."
    I keep telling you guys that you need to consult a decent Bible commentary, assuming you really want to understand the text. My ESV study Bible says the following about Hebrews 7:3 (emphasis in the original):

    Some have suggested that Melchizedek was a preincarnate appearance of the Son of God. As this passage indicates, however, Melchizedek was not in fact the Son of God but someone resembling the Son of God (literally, "having been made like the Son of God"). He is without father or mother or genealogy probably means simply that this information is not given anywhere in scripture (in contrast to the Levitical priests, whose genealogies are recorded). The next phrase (neither beginning of days nor end of life) should probably be understood in the same way. The OT mentions no end to his priesthood. In that sense he continues a priest forever. Hebrews seems to view Melchizedek as an ordinary man. He was a "type" or foreshadowing of Christ, who is truly king of righteousness and who brings true peace.

    The last sentence contains a footnote referring to the commentary for Romans 5:14 which says:

    Adam is a type (that is, a model or pattern) of Christ. Both Adam and Christ are covenantal heads of the human race. All people are either "in Adam" or "in Christ". All are "in Adam" by physical birth, while only those who have placed their faith in Christ are "in" him.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  8. #268
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    I keep telling you guys that you need to consult a decent Bible commentary, assuming you really want to understand the text. My ESV study Bible says the following about Hebrews 7:3 (emphasis in the original):

    Some have suggested that Melchizedek was a preincarnate appearance of the Son of God. As this passage indicates, however, Melchizedek was not in fact the Son of God but someone resembling the Son of God (literally, "having been made like the Son of God"). He is without father or mother or genealogy probably means simply that this information is not given anywhere in scripture (in contrast to the Levitical priests, whose genealogies are recorded). The next phrase (neither beginning of days nor end of life) should probably be understood in the same way. The OT mentions no end to his priesthood. In that sense he continues a priest forever. Hebrews seems to view Melchizedek as an ordinary man. He was a "type" or foreshadowing of Christ, who is truly king of righteousness and who brings true peace.

    The last sentence contains a footnote referring to the commentary for Romans 5:14 which says:

    Adam is a type (that is, a model or pattern) of Christ. Both Adam and Christ are covenantal heads of the human race. All people are either "in Adam" or "in Christ". All are "in Adam" by physical birth, while only those who have placed their faith in Christ are "in" him.
    Please stick to the text of Hebrews 7:3. If we stick to "without father, without mother, having neither beginning of days nor end of life", then it means, can only mean, God the Father, who is without beginning or end.

    Moreover, according toHebrews 7:8, he is still alive.

  9. #269
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Same Hakeem View Post
    Please stick to the text of Hebrews 7:3. If we stick to "without father, without mother, having neither beginning of days nor end of life", then it means, can only mean, God the Father, who is without beginning or end.

    Moreover, according toHebrews 7:8, he is still alive.
    "Without father, without mother" simply means the name of his father and mother were unknown.

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  11. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian3 View Post
    "Without father, without mother" simply means the name of his father and mother were unknown.
    As I wrote to you earlier, Hebrew 7:3 also describes Melchizedek as "without beginning of days or end of life, resembling the Son of God"

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