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[carpedm9587]

I believe it does.

I know you do - but your belief does not align with the facts. There are many belief systems that preach peace and family and morality. Indeed - most of them do.

I do. If someone follows the tenets of Christianity they will love their neighbor, their spouse and be peaceful. If someone follows Islam, they would force everyone to become muslim or die. They would beat their wives. And kill all infidels.

You anti-Muslim bigotry is showing, Sparko.

Where does Christianity teach violence?

It depends on what form of violence you are talking about. Verbal? Physical? Emotional? The Christian stance against most of the LGBTQ community is a form of violence. I understand you are not going to see it that way; to you - it is "just following god's will." Except the result is telling loving couples that they cannot love in a way you don't approve, that they cannot have children, be married, or access benefits available to other loving couples. Your anti-Muslim bigotry is a form of violence, ignoring the vast majority of Muslims in the world who do NOT align with the extremist views you are trying to paint on them. The mocking attacks of people like MM (and you) that you defend by pointing to where/when Jesus mocked and belittled other people is a form of violence. The list could go on, but you (almost certainly) will not accept any of these things as "violence." They are just (to you) required by your faith. Fortunately, not all Christians take those positions.

They may, indeed. But it is clear that today's society doesn't follow anything like those values. That is why we have school shooting, police murders, fathers abandoning their wives and children, drugs, etc. Clearly secular societal values aren't working.

The implication that these things would all go away if everyone was just Christian is hopelessly naive, Sparko. Trying to lay the blame for all of these things on "not being Christian" is just an enormous stretch. We have had violence of many forms throughout the history of this country. We've had violence outside the Christian faith - and within the Christian faith. Indeed, history has shown a significant incidence of violence CAUSED by Christians - as well as Muslims - as well as Hindus - as well as <insert religion X here>. Indeed - it has been caused by non-religious people too. The bottom line is fairly simple: some people commit acts of violence - and there is no belief system or structure that is immune from that reality.

Ah so it is just "messy" because people have to reorient themselves. LOL. - Atheism and your moral relativism has no values to teach society. It is everyone for themselves. Nothing is evil or wrong except what you believe. There is no accountability, no consequences except arbitrary artificial laws.

I have had no problem teaching my children values - and I didn't have to use "because god says so" as my reason.

We already know that Christian based values work.

We already know that human value systems work - and transcend any particular belief system. All Christianity has done is take value structures that have existed since long before Christianity existed - and attributed them to their god. So too has Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, and pretty much every other religious man has derived. Slowly, man is realizing that it doesn't take a god to derive a moral/value system. Any sentient being can do so.

[lilpixieofterror]

I know you do - but your belief does not align with the facts. There are many belief systems that preach peace and family and morality. Indeed - most of them do.



You anti-Muslim bigotry is showing, Sparko.



It depends on what form of violence you are talking about. Verbal? Physical? Emotional? The Christian stance against most of the LGBTQ community is a form of violence. I understand you are not going to see it that way; to you - it is "just following god's will." Except the result is telling loving couples that they cannot love in a way you don't approve, that they cannot have children, be married, or access benefits available to other loving couples. Your anti-Muslim bigotry is a form of violence, ignoring the vast majority of Muslims in the world who do NOT align with the extremist views you are trying to paint on them. The mocking attacks of people like MM (and you) that you defend by pointing to where/when Jesus mocked and belittled other people is a form of violence. The list could go on, but you (almost certainly) will not accept any of these things as "violence." They are just (to you) required by your faith. Fortunately, not all Christians take those positions.



The implication that these things would all go away if everyone was just Christian is hopelessly naive, Sparko. Trying to lay the blame for all of these things on "not being Christian" is just an enormous stretch. We have had violence of many forms throughout the history of this country. We've had violence outside the Christian faith - and within the Christian faith. Indeed, history has shown a significant incidence of violence CAUSED by Christians - as well as Muslims - as well as Hindus - as well as <insert religion X here>. Indeed - it has been caused by non-religious people too. The bottom line is fairly simple: some people commit acts of violence - and there is no belief system or structure that is immune from that reality.



I have had no problem teaching my children values - and I didn't have to use "because god says so" as my reason.

We already know that human value systems work - and transcend any particular belief system. All Christianity has done is take value structures that have existed since long before Christianity existed - and attributed them to their god. So too has Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, and pretty much every other religious man has derived. Slowly, man is realizing that it doesn't take a god to derive a moral/value system. Any sentient being can do so.

Let’s start here:

How did early Islam spread?

How did early Christianity spread?

Let’s start here and work our way from there.

[carpedm9587]

Let’s start here:

How did early Islam spread?

How did early Christianity spread?

Let’s start here and work our way from there.

It's been a while, but my memory of my studies is that the two faiths followed inverse paths. Islam spread from its early roots through conquest by the nations that had adopted Islam as its religion, and it was later in its evolution that expansion became a peaceful enterprise (except among the most militant - which has some significant political elements to it). That is believed to have a great deal to do with the nature of the countries that first converted to Islam (mostly tribal and in the middle east).

Christianity, on the other hand, initially spread largely due the actions of the early martyrs, and did not begin "expansion by conquest" until it was the dominant religion in several countries. Once it was adopted by Constantine (and later Spain, Portugal, and other countries) expansion by conquest was more common. Then, like Islam, Christianity returned to its earlier roots.

But both religions are rooted in a Judaic prehistory, which also involved expansion (as well as protection) by conquest.

Many (most?) religions have at least some aspect of their history associated with violence. Frankly, most human societies have some aspect of their history associated with violence. It's a common human theme.

[rogue06]

It's been a while, but my memory of my studies is that the two faiths followed inverse paths. Islam spread from its early roots through conquest by the nations that had adopted Islam as its religion, and it was later in its evolution that expansion became a peaceful enterprise (except among the most militant - which has some significant political elements to it). That is believed to have a great deal to do with the nature of the countries that first converted to Islam (mostly tribal and in the middle east).

Christianity, on the other hand, initially spread largely due the actions of the early martyrs, and did not begin "expansion by conquest" until it was the dominant religion in several countries. Once it was adopted by Constantine (and later Spain, Portugal, and other countries) expansion by conquest was more common. Then, like Islam, Christianity returned to its earlier roots.

But both religions are rooted in a Judaic prehistory, which also involved expansion (as well as protection) by conquest.

Many (most?) religions have at least some aspect of their history associated with violence. Frankly, most human societies have some aspect of their history associated with violence. It's a common human theme.

The part you conspicuously omit is that Mohammed commanded that Islam be spread by the sword whereas Jesus advocated peaceful conversion. So forcible conversion is a requirement of Islam but is in direct conflict with Christian teaching.

And please don't try the old saw that the Qur'an contains verses calling for peaceful conversion as they were abrogated by later verses to convert by force.

[carpedm9587]

The part you conspicuously omit is that Mohammed commanded that Islam be spread by the sword whereas Jesus advocated peaceful conversion. So forcible conversion is a requirement of Islam but is in direct conflict with Christian teaching.

And please don't try the old saw that the Qur'an contains verses calling for peaceful conversion as they were abrogated by later verses to convert by force.

The history is the history Both books have been used to justify violence as well as peace. Even Jesus' words get used to defend verbal violence and justify force. Because most modern practitioners of both religions tend more towards the messages embracing peace and less towards the messages embracing and promoting violence doesn't change the existence of both throughout history - for both religions. Indeed - the more extreme one's views - the more there is a tendency to violence.

[rogue06]

The history is the history Both books have been used to justify violence as well as peace. Even Jesus' words get used to defend verbal violence and justify force. Because most modern practitioners of both religions tend more towards the messages embracing peace and less towards the messages embracing and promoting violence doesn't change the existence of both throughout history - for both religions. Indeed - the more extreme one's views - the more there is a tendency to violence.

Nice try but Islam expressly and explicitly commands that their religion be spread by force whereas Christianity has to be twisted into justifying use of force.

[lilpixieofterror]

The history is the history Both books have been used to justify violence as well as peace. Even Jesus' words get used to defend verbal violence and justify force. Because most modern practitioners of both religions tend more towards the messages embracing peace and less towards the messages embracing and promoting violence doesn't change the existence of both throughout history - for both religions. Indeed - the more extreme one's views - the more there is a tendency to violence.

Difference being spreading by violence is in direct opposition to the teaching of Christ. Spreading by violence is perfectly in line with the teachings of Mohammed.

[One Bad Pig]

We already know that human value systems work - and transcend any particular belief system. All Christianity has done is take value structures that have existed since long before Christianity existed - and attributed them to their god. So too has Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, and pretty much every other religious man has derived. Slowly, man is realizing that it doesn't take a god to derive a moral/value system. Any sentient being can do so.

I'm sure you take great comfort in believing this. It suits you well.

[Sparko]

I know you do - but your belief does not align with the facts. There are many belief systems that preach peace and family and morality. Indeed - most of them do.



You anti-Muslim bigotry is showing, Sparko.

No, just my knowledge of the teachings of the Quran and the actual history of Islam, not to mention what is going on in the Middle East right now. No bigotry involved. The "peaceful" Muslims are actually heretics to the actual quran and the teachings of Muhammad.

It depends on what form of violence you are talking about. Verbal? Physical? Emotional? The Christian stance against most of the LGBTQ community is a form of violence. I understand you are not going to see it that way; to you - it is "just following god's will." Except the result is telling loving couples that they cannot love in a way you don't approve, that they cannot have children, be married, or access benefits available to other loving couples. Your anti-Muslim bigotry is a form of violence, ignoring the vast majority of Muslims in the world who do NOT align with the extremist views you are trying to paint on them. The mocking attacks of people like MM (and you) that you defend by pointing to where/when Jesus mocked and belittled other people is a form of violence. The list could go on, but you (almost certainly) will not accept any of these things as "violence." They are just (to you) required by your faith. Fortunately, not all Christians take those positions.

sigh. Then your telling me that Christianity is wrong and my values are wrong and that God doesn't exist is a form of violence too, Carp.

The implication that these things would all go away if everyone was just Christian is hopelessly naive, Sparko. Trying to lay the blame for all of these things on "not being Christian" is just an enormous stretch. We have had violence of many forms throughout the history of this country. We've had violence outside the Christian faith - and within the Christian faith. Indeed, history has shown a significant incidence of violence CAUSED by Christians - as well as Muslims - as well as Hindus - as well as <insert religion X here>. Indeed - it has been caused by non-religious people too. The bottom line is fairly simple: some people commit acts of violence - and there is no belief system or structure that is immune from that reality.

Again, what Christianity teaches is not always followed correctly by it's members. My point is that if we did follow the teachings of Christianity, the world would be a better place. Thus my initial comment that the only real solution is Jesus.

[One Bad Pig]

Christianity, on the other hand, initially spread largely due the actions of the early martyrs, and did not begin "expansion by conquest" until it was the dominant religion in several countries. Once it was adopted by Constantine (and later Spain, Portugal, and other countries) expansion by conquest was more common. Then, like Islam, Christianity returned to its earlier roots.

Pretty much the only "expansion by conquest" I recall is that done by Charlemagne. The conquest of the New World was driven primarily by monetary and/or nationalistic aims; it is not even close to analogous with Islam's "convert, submit, or die." I suppose you could say that once is "more common" than not at all.

[rogue06]

Pretty much the only "expansion by conquest" I recall is that done by Charlemagne. The conquest of the New World was driven primarily by monetary and/or nationalistic aims; it is not even close to analogous with Islam's "convert, submit, or die." I suppose you could say that once is "more common" than not at all.

The conquest of the New World was driven primarily by what we call the 3 G's: Gold, Glory and God. And pretty much in that order of importance. And, with a few notorious exceptions, it was the priests who kept calling for the humane treatment of indigenous people.

[carpedm9587]

No, just my knowledge of the teachings of the Quran and the actual history of Islam, not to mention what is going on in the Middle East right now. No bigotry involved. The "peaceful" Muslims are actually heretics to the actual quran and the teachings of Muhammad.

No. You have simply taken the most objectionable passages of the Q'uran and painted all of Islam with that brush. It's essentially the same thing JimL and others do when they pull out the worst passages of the OT (or NT, for that matter) and claim they reflect all Christian values. Most of Islam is not "extremist," and because the extremist Muslims call the peaceful members of Islam (which is most of them) "heretics" doesn't make them so. "Heretic" effectively (functionally) translates to, "someone who claims to be part of my group, but doesn't agree with what I believe."

sigh. Then your telling me that Christianity is wrong and my values are wrong and that God doesn't exist is a form of violence too, Carp.

No - I'm telling you that the values Christianity teaches a) are not unique to Christianity and b) did not originate with Christianity. There is not a single Christian moral teaching (that I am aware of) that does not predate Christianity AND Judaism. And the sentence, "no, you're wrong about that" is not a form of "violence" in any context I know of. If you think otherwise, then perhaps you should consider not being so quick to label others "snowflakes" and "politically correct" and "thin-skinned."

Again, what Christianity teaches is not always followed correctly by it's members. My point is that if we did follow the teachings of Christianity, the world would be a better place. Thus my initial comment that the only real solution is Jesus.

Which ones, Sparko? The fact is, you cannot even get universal agreement on what the Christian teachings ARE. There are over 2500 different Christian sects. Some teachings permeate most of those (wide agreement), and some are rejected by most of those (narrow agreement), and there is everything in between. Of course, each sect believes it has THE correct moral teachings - just as you believe that YOUR interpretation of these teachings is "the correct one." That's the problem with hanging moral teachings on "god says so." There is wide interpretation of what god actually said, what god meant, which teachings are current and which have been obviated, and so forth.

And yet each devout Christian claims to have unique access to "THE TRUTH."

It's an interesting dynamic, when you look at how it actually plays out.

[Sparko]

No. You have simply taken the most objectionable passages of the Q'uran and painted all of Islam with that brush. It's essentially the same thing JimL and others do when they pull out the worst passages of the OT and claim they reflect all Christian values. Most of Islam is not "extremist," and because the extremists call the peaceful members of Islam (which is most of them) "heretics" doesn't make them so.

Have you read the quran yourself? Have you studied Islam? I have.

Not only that but you refuse to see how Muslim's treat women and homosexuals in their society. You condemn me for "violence" because I say homosexuality is a sin. But Christianity doesn't toss homosexuals off of rooftops, or treat women as second class citizens that get beaten by their husbands when they disobey.

No - I'm telling you that the values Christianity teaches a) are not unique to Christianity and b) did not originate with Christianity. There is not a single Christian moral teaching that i am aware of that does not predate Christianity AND Judaism. And the sentence, "no, you're wrong about that" is not a form of "violence" in any context I know of. If you think otherwise, then perhaps you should consider not being so quick to label others "snowflakes" and "politically correct" and "thin-skinned."

So me telling homosexuals that they are sinning is violence but you telling me my values are wrong is not violence? Go ahead, pull the other one!

Which ones, Sparko? The fact is, you cannot even get universal agreement on what the Christian teachings ARE. There are over 2500 different Christian sects. Some teachings permeate most of those, and some are rejected by most of those, and everything in between. Of course, each sect believes it has THE correct moral teachings - just as you believe that YOUR interpretation of these teachings is "the correct one." That's the problem with hanging moral teachings on "god says so." There is wide interpretation of what god actually said, what god meant, which teachings are current and which have been obviated, and so forth.

And yet each devout Christian claims to have unique access to "THE TRUTH."

It's an interesting dynamic, when you look at how it actually plays out.

The bible is pretty clear on its moral teachings Carp. The various sects differ over different doctrines and traditions. And as I said, not every Christian follows the teachings of Jesus correctly. Their failure doesn't invalidate the standard.

[rogue06]

No. You have simply taken the most objectionable passages of the Q'uran and painted all of Islam with that brush.

Your ignorance wrt to Islam is nothing short of mind boggling.

[Sparko]

Your ignorance wrt to Islam is nothing short of mind boggling.

Since we are talking about societal values, I would like him to compare Sharia law with traditional Christian values in western society. Especially since he just got through telling me how violent Christians are for saying LBGT are sinners.