Jobs, Jobs, Jobs!

[One Bad Pig]

Then I have to assume you haven't been around much. I know people who have been locked into these minimum wage jobs for years, caught between the need to put food on the table and pay the bills, and the desire to get an education and better themselves. And some simply lack the potential to get higher paying work.

Perhaps there is a tendency for us to see what we want to see.

Yes, you tend to do that. My dad raised two kids on a teacher's salary, mostly by himself (my mom died when I was young after battling diabetes), so it's not as if I was raised as a child of privilege. I paid for college by serving in the Navy first.

[carpedm9587]

Yes, you tend to do that. My dad raised two kids on a teacher's salary, mostly by himself (my mom died when I was young after battling diabetes), so it's not as if I was raised as a child of privilege. I paid for college by serving in the Navy first.

Your experience doesn't obviate the experiences of other people, OBP. Your reality is not necessarily everyone else's reality - hence my observation about "seeing what you want to see."

My dad also raised five kids on a machinist salary supplemented by my mother's nursing salary. We were never rich, but they had the "luxury" of extensive family to support and watch kids while they did their schooling and worked their jobs. Not everyone is so fortunate.

[Catholicity]

Yes, you tend to do that. My dad raised two kids on a teacher's salary, mostly by himself (my mom died when I was young after battling diabetes), so it's not as if I was raised as a child of privilege. I paid for college by serving in the Navy first.

I would have LOVED to serve in the military to pay for school. And I know all to well the cycle of how it is to be caught in a lower paying job and putting food on the table. Right now it is more difficult than some people think. Also my situation might be unique but epilepsy kept me out of the military.

[One Bad Pig]

Your experience doesn't obviate the experiences of other people, OBP. Your reality is not necessarily everyone else's reality - hence my observation about "seeing what you want to see."

What in the world??? I'm not saying that my experience obviates that of others. Sparko, and others, have posted studies which show that people rarely stay below the poverty line for long. Are there exceptions? Sure. The equation of experience with reality which you're making here is flat out absurd. That you even insinuate I think like that shows your inability to escape from your own world-view. Further, I'm seeing what I see - what I want has nothing to do with that.

Remind me not to engage in conversation with you. I know you mean well, but your thought patterns are so alien that it quickly becomes an exercise in frustration.

[One Bad Pig]

I would have LOVED to serve in the military to pay for school. And I know all to well the cycle of how it is to be caught in a lower paying job and putting food on the table. Right now it is more difficult than some people think. Also my situation might be unique but epilepsy kept me out of the military.

There's actually quite a list of things which keep people out of the military. I went to high school with a guy who would have given up his firstborn to serve in the Army - but he had asthma.

[JimL]

There's actually quite a list of things which keep people out of the military. I went to high school with a guy who would have given up his firstborn to serve in the Army - but he had asthma.

Trump would have loved to have served as well, unfortunately he had bone spurs so he was rejected. Funny how he was able to be very active in college sports though, baseball, squash and tennis I believe. Odd that!

[Sparko]

All of that may apply to high-salary, white collar work, but it doesn't generally apply to minimum wage line workers. Companies don't invest a great deal in these people, it takes a couple hours to train them, and if/when they leave there is another poor sod waiting to take the position. They're cannon fodder. Up until fairly recently, anyone getting an entry job at Wal*Mart would instantly qualify for food stamps and welfare support because they were below the poverty line. An unskilled parent would need to work two such jobs to make ends meet - resulting in that much less time with family, with all of the subsequent financial and social costs of that situation. If we did not have a minimum wage, these most vulnerable employees would see their wages quickly slashed even further to reduce cost. There is a reason why over 190 countries have a specified minimum wage for employees.

Meanwhile, the top earners at Wal*Mart and the shareholders are walking away with millions. Until that inequity is resolved, I will stand solidly behind social programs to help those disadvantaged by such a system to get the assistance they need.

You are wrong. Having a minimum wage is what keeps the wages low. Everyone knows that is the set limit to pay workers in entry level jobs and so everyone does it. Once in a while when you get a job shortage you will notice one of the fast food companies advertise higher starting pay, like McDonald's which I think advertises $9/hour. Not having a minimum wage would mean companies would compete more and I think wages would go up.

[carpedm9587]

What in the world??? I'm not saying that my experience obviates that of others. Sparko, and others, have posted studies which show that people rarely stay below the poverty line for long. Are there exceptions? Sure. The equation of experience with reality which you're making here is flat out absurd. That you even insinuate I think like that shows your inability to escape from your own world-view. Further, I'm seeing what I see - what I want has nothing to do with that.

Based on your posts, OBP, I am dubious about the emphasized claim. I am dubious because of my own experiences with poverty, and because of the data. Statistically, someone who has been in poverty for a year has a 56% chance of escaping it. So 44% of people in poverty are staying there for at least a year. The chances of escaping drop with each year spent. By the time someone has been in poverty for 7 years, their chances of escaping drop to 13%. So 87% of people in poverty more than seven years will likely continue to stay in poverty. Across the population, the average time spent in poverty is 2.8 years. In 2015, 43.1M Americans were below the poverty line, which is 13.5% of our population. Poverty has been declining as the recovery from the recession has continued, but in 2017 it was still at 12.3% of the U.S. population, or 41.36M people. Meanwhile, the wealth gap in the U.S. continues to widen.

Remind me not to engage in conversation with you. I know you mean well, but your thought patterns are so alien that it quickly becomes an exercise in frustration.

Then I suggest engaging with someone else.

[carpedm9587]

You are wrong. Having a minimum wage is what keeps the wages low. Everyone knows that is the set limit to pay workers in entry level jobs and so everyone does it. Once in a while when you get a job shortage you will notice one of the fast food companies advertise higher starting pay, like McDonald's which I think advertises $9/hour. Not having a minimum wage would mean companies would compete more and I think wages would go up.

Sparko - you argument doesn't even make sense. A minimum wage doesn't force anyone to ONLY pay the minimum wage - it simply sets a baseline. You have zero basis for the implication that if the minimum wage were eliminated, wages would go UP. Common sense says they would go down, especially in a time when unemployment is higher. That's how the market works. Today unemployment is low, and we would expect to see an uptick in wages. But that has been painfully slow as company after company turns to automation and other productivity-enhancing techniques. And they are intentionally hiring people for part-time positions to avoid the need to provide any form of benefit. Look around, Sparko. The world is not working the way you think it is.

[Sparko]

Sparko - you argument doesn't even make sense. A minimum wage doesn't force anyone to ONLY pay the minimum wage - it simply sets a baseline. You have zero basis for the implication that if the minimum wage were eliminated, wages would go UP. Common sense says they would go down, especially in a time when unemployment is higher. That's how the market works. Today unemployment is low, and we would expect to see an uptick in wages. But that has been painfully slow as company after company turns to automation and other productivity-enhancing techniques. And they are intentionally hiring people for part-time positions to avoid the need to provide any form of benefit. Look around, Sparko. The world is not working the way you think it is.

It functions as an agreed upon "price fix" - everyone just pays minimum wage unless they have to pay more to attract better workers. It stifles the market. If there were no minimum wage, there would be more competition. Sure some would try to pay less, but they would soon find that they only get poor workers or none at all as they would go to people paying more. How do you expect to build your widgets if you can't get anyone to work for you at 25 cents an hour?

[carpedm9587]

It functions as an agreed upon "price fix" - everyone just pays minimum wage unless they have to pay more to attract better workers. It stifles the market. If there were no minimum wage, there would be more competition. Sure some would try to pay less, but they would soon find that they only get poor workers or none at all as they would go to people paying more. How do you expect to build your widgets if you can't get anyone to work for you at 25 cents an hour?

And the emphasized is exactly my point. In a free market, salaries rise with low unemployment, and stagnate or drop with high unemployment. Basic supply and demand. But this supply and demand most significantly impacts those making the lowest wage. A minimum wage merely sets a lower threshold on the latter, ensuring that, even in bad times, people are being paid a basic living wage. It is why 193 out of 195 countries around the world define a minimum wage. It does nothing to "stifle the market." It does nothing to prevent companies from competing for employees.

What you are claiming is the equivalent of saying "it stifles an auction for the auctioneer to set a minimum initial bid." It does nothing of the kind. What it does is prevent an item from being sold for a value significantly below its actual worth. Bidders are free to continue to bid upwards from that starting point. The same is true of a minimum wage.

The other common argument is that it will force companies out of business. Horse hockey. If all businesses are pushed to the same minimum wage, businesses will either have to pass the cost on to consumers, or perhaps consider just how wide their wage disparity is within their company and do something to bring it more into alignment. The CEO of WalMart made $22.8M last year. WalMart has 1.4 million employees in the U.S. If that CEO was paid $20M, every WalMart employee could have seen a $2 raise. And that's ONE senior level person.

There is such a thing as economic justice.

[seer]

There is such a thing as economic justice.

No, actually there isn't. Not Constitutionally nor historically.

[rogue06]

There is such a thing as economic justice.

A concept generally promoted by Marxist philosophy. So much for your claim of being a fiscal conservative.

[seer]

A concept generally promoted by Marxist philosophy. So much for your claim of being a fiscal conservative.

From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs...

[Sparko]

And the emphasized is exactly my point. In a free market, salaries rise with low unemployment, and stagnate or drop with high unemployment. Basic supply and demand. But this supply and demand most significantly impacts those making the lowest wage. A minimum wage merely sets a lower threshold on the latter, ensuring that, even in bad times, people are being paid a basic living wage. It is why 193 out of 195 countries around the world define a minimum wage. It does nothing to "stifle the market." It does nothing to prevent companies from competing for employees.

What you are claiming is the equivalent of saying "it stifles an auction for the auctioneer to set a minimum initial bid." It does nothing of the kind. What it does is prevent an item from being sold for a value significantly below its actual worth. Bidders are free to continue to bid upwards from that starting point. The same is true of a minimum wage.

The other common argument is that it will force companies out of business. Horse hockey. If all businesses are pushed to the same minimum wage, businesses will either have to pass the cost on to consumers, or perhaps consider just how wide their wage disparity is within their company and do something to bring it more into alignment. The CEO of WalMart made $22.8M last year. WalMart has 1.4 million employees in the U.S. If that CEO was paid $20M, every WalMart employee could have seen a $2 raise. And that's ONE senior level person.

There is such a thing as economic justice.

I think I agree with OBP here...

...your thought patterns are so alien that it quickly becomes an exercise in frustration.

Where there is a gut of employees out there desperate for work, you have people sitting at home jobless, making NOTHING. Which is considerably less than minimum wage. I think I would rather have the CHOICE to work for less than minimum wage than make nothing at all.

But again, there is a point for everyone where working for so little is not worth the effort. And companies will not be able to compete because they can't get workers. The solution is not forcing higher wages. It is helping people get training so they can get better jobs. So they don't HAVE to take a job picking cabbages. More skill means more choice.

America is not the country of economic justice. It is the land of opportunity. And when you get training you have more opportunity. Nobody owes you a living carp. As you tell your kids, life isn't fair. It is up to you to make the best of your life. If someone wants to sit on their butts all day and not go to school or get any training then they will end up working at the bottom of the pile for whatever wages they can get, or just live off of welfare or end up homeless. It is up to them. Rich people don't own poor people anything. They pay their employees what the employees agree to work for. That is only fair. The employees always have the choice to not take the job. And the more skills they have the more opportunity they have.