Originally posted by Sparko
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theymost of them still know better than promote it publicly).
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostThis does not surprise me: CNN is about as strongly left and Fox is strongly right - so they should be given about as much credence.
For the record - I have never questioned that a barrier is needed - strategically. Barriers DO have an effect. However, I have strongly questioned the list of problems Trump says the barriers will solve -
and I have strongly questioned the type of barrier he feels needs to be built - and I have strongly questioned the lack of any specifics about priorities for where and when the various segments need to be built.
It is clear, as more and more wall is built, attempts to penetrate the border will continually shift to locations without a barrier, requiring continual addition to the barrier until, effectively, the entire border will have some form of access control. Unfortunately, because the Rio Grande runs a significant length of the border - it introduces some significant problems. The barrier may not always be a concrete wall (there is little justification for this) or a metal fence. The "barrier" in some areas may well have to be technological in order to be effective.
But even if we do end up with a barrier the entire length of the border - it will not stop illegal immigration to the U.S. The data suggests it will stop about half of it. Other steps need to be taken to deal with the other half - because more than half of the illegal immigrants in our country are here due to overstaying valid visas.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostI think a wall would be effective in lowering the number of illegal crossings. It won't stop them. I also think the argument that "most illegals come in through visas and overstay" to be a bad argument.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostNot really. They used to be for a wall. The real reason is that conservatives want it. If Trump promised to "tear down that wall" in California (where liberals already HAVE a wall along the border) they would have screamed that Trump was endangering their children by letting criminals cross the border freely.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostBut the perception is that CNN is "real news" and Fox News is right wing nutters.
From what I can tell, Fox has been that way from the outset - it was it's basic mission. CNN was not always that way, but adopted the Fox model when it saw how financially successful it was at building a devoted base of viewers. I fault both of them for further polarizing the electorate. Both of them, IMO, comprise a slate of talking heads that are the equivalent of Tolkein's "Wormtongue" character. I have as little respect for Hannity and Ingraham (both Fox) as I do for Cooper (CNN) and Maddow (MSNBC).
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostPerhaps mitigate would be a better word?
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI do wish Trump would give more specifics about what he wants to accomplish.
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostThe "technology", unless you have it accompanied by automatic weapons or lasers or something (purposely being facetious) doesn't do much unless there are border agents or personnel within a reasonable proximity to address the problem.
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostThe data? Usually, if you have such data, you post it.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI have never said anything but that CNN is the equivalent of Fox but on the opposite side of the political divide.
Firstly, objectively, if you measured the extent to which each channel gives airtime to the side it is against, you would find that CNN goes out of its way to have Republican representation on-air with Republicans on as many of its panels as possible. Fox is happier to have everyone on air reading from the same playbook.
Secondly, more subjectively, if you analyzed which wings of their parties CNN and Fox were for and against you would see some significant differences. Fox has been pretty happy to enable the full spectrum of the Republican party, from the Tea Party to Trump to Paul Ryan to Jeb!. There's a good case to be made that Fox itself has been the primary creator of the extreme-right-wing of the Republican party by its constant advocacy of racist tropes and anti-immigrant views in recent years. CNN by contrast, is definitely not a promoter of extreme-leftist views within the Democratic party. In fact I would say its anti-Progressive bias is much stronger than its anti-Republican bias. CNN prefers the establishment and moderates and centrists within both parties and objects to the outliers be they left or right wing."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostI think you're overlooking two fairly basic things here, one objective and one a bit more subjective.
Firstly, objectively, if you measured the extent to which each channel gives airtime to the side it is against, you would find that CNN goes out of its way to have Republican representation on-air with Republicans on as many of its panels as possible. Fox is happier to have everyone on air reading from the same playbook.
Secondly, more subjectively, if you analyzed which wings of their parties CNN and Fox were for and against you would see some significant differences. Fox has been pretty happy to enable the full spectrum of the Republican party, from the Tea Party to Trump to Paul Ryan to Jeb!. There's a good case to be made that Fox itself has been the primary creator of the extreme-right-wing of the Republican party by its constant advocacy of racist tropes and anti-immigrant views in recent years. CNN by contrast, is definitely not a promoter of extreme-leftist views within the Democratic party. In fact I would say its anti-Progressive bias is much stronger than its anti-Republican bias. CNN prefers the establishment and moderates and centrists within both parties and objects to the outliers be they left or right wing.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostThis does not surprise me: CNN is about as strongly left and Fox is strongly right - so they should be given about as much credence.
It's a bit sad that CNN is the least biased of the three major cable news networks.
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Originally posted by Terraceth View PostI don't agree with that. CNN is left-wing, but I don't think it's as left-wing as Fox is right-wing. The better comparison is MSNBC, though that might actually outdo Fox a little in terms of bias.
It's a bit sad that CNN is the least biased of the three major cable news networks.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostInteresting. I would have assessed MSNBC as slightly right of CNN, but on double-checking mediabiasfactcheck and allsides I find they are actually rated slightly left of them. Still, the difference is not significant, and I have explored the evaluation models both sites use and find them pretty sound. I'll pay closer attention, but both are evaluated as about far left as Fox is evaluated far right, which aligns with my own experience.“I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
“And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
“not all there” - you know who you are
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostI think you're overlooking two fairly basic things here, one objective and one a bit more subjective.
Firstly, objectively, if you measured the extent to which each channel gives airtime to the side it is against, you would find that CNN goes out of its way to have Republican representation on-air with Republicans on as many of its panels as possible. Fox is happier to have everyone on air reading from the same playbook.
Secondly, more subjectively, if you analyzed which wings of their parties CNN and Fox were for and against you would see some significant differences. Fox has been pretty happy to enable the full spectrum of the Republican party, from the Tea Party to Trump to Paul Ryan to Jeb!. There's a good case to be made that Fox itself has been the primary creator of the extreme-right-wing of the Republican party by its constant advocacy of racist tropes and anti-immigrant views in recent years. CNN by contrast, is definitely not a promoter of extreme-leftist views within the Democratic party. In fact I would say its anti-Progressive bias is much stronger than its anti-Republican bias. CNN prefers the establishment and moderates and centrists within both parties and objects to the outliers be they left or right wing.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by firstfloor View PostTruth to the left, propaganda to the right - a fact of nature. Whay it is like that, I'm not sure.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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