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  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    Not really. They used to be for a wall. The real reason is that conservatives want it. If Trump promised to "tear down that wall" in California (where liberals already HAVE a wall along the border) they would have screamed that Trump was endangering their children by letting criminals cross the border freely.
    Possibly, but there was a big shift among the Democrat Party in 2011-12 when Obama decided to abandon white working class voters and concentrate instead on building a coalition among the various minorities. At that point there was a shift toward open borders (though they most of them still know better than promote it publicly).

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
      This does not surprise me: CNN is about as strongly left and Fox is strongly right - so they should be given about as much credence.
      But the perception is that CNN is "real news" and Fox News is right wing nutters.

      For the record - I have never questioned that a barrier is needed - strategically. Barriers DO have an effect. However, I have strongly questioned the list of problems Trump says the barriers will solve -
      Perhaps mitigate would be a better word?

      and I have strongly questioned the type of barrier he feels needs to be built - and I have strongly questioned the lack of any specifics about priorities for where and when the various segments need to be built.
      I do wish Trump would give more specifics about what he wants to accomplish.

      It is clear, as more and more wall is built, attempts to penetrate the border will continually shift to locations without a barrier, requiring continual addition to the barrier until, effectively, the entire border will have some form of access control. Unfortunately, because the Rio Grande runs a significant length of the border - it introduces some significant problems. The barrier may not always be a concrete wall (there is little justification for this) or a metal fence. The "barrier" in some areas may well have to be technological in order to be effective.
      The "technology", unless you have it accompanied by automatic weapons or lasers or something (purposely being facetious) doesn't do much unless there are border agents or personnel within a reasonable proximity to address the problem.

      But even if we do end up with a barrier the entire length of the border - it will not stop illegal immigration to the U.S. The data suggests it will stop about half of it. Other steps need to be taken to deal with the other half - because more than half of the illegal immigrants in our country are here due to overstaying valid visas.
      The data? Usually, if you have such data, you post it.
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        I think a wall would be effective in lowering the number of illegal crossings. It won't stop them. I also think the argument that "most illegals come in through visas and overstay" to be a bad argument.
        So, let's fix that, TOO! Politicians often seem to think only in terms of either/or.
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          Not really. They used to be for a wall. The real reason is that conservatives want it. If Trump promised to "tear down that wall" in California (where liberals already HAVE a wall along the border) they would have screamed that Trump was endangering their children by letting criminals cross the border freely.
          I think they'd realize that was a trap, and would not publicly protest because it would hurt their political futures.
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            But the perception is that CNN is "real news" and Fox News is right wing nutters.
            The perception by whom? Certainly not me. I have never said anything but that CNN is the equivalent of Fox but on the opposite side of the political divide. From what I see, most on the right defend Fox as "fair and balanced" and call CNN "skewed and with a political agenda." Most on the left defend CNN as an impartial news source and call Fox "skewed and with a political agenda." IMO, they are both pretty much equally skewed and in opposite directions.

            From what I can tell, Fox has been that way from the outset - it was it's basic mission. CNN was not always that way, but adopted the Fox model when it saw how financially successful it was at building a devoted base of viewers. I fault both of them for further polarizing the electorate. Both of them, IMO, comprise a slate of talking heads that are the equivalent of Tolkein's "Wormtongue" character. I have as little respect for Hannity and Ingraham (both Fox) as I do for Cooper (CNN) and Maddow (MSNBC).

            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            Perhaps mitigate would be a better word?
            For some, perhaps. For most, no. For example - Trump keeps telling everyone it will impact drugs flowing across the border. The vast majority of drugs, however, enter the country through legal ports of entry by ways of various shipping tricks. Very little comes across the border between these ports. Even the Border Patrol affirms this to be the case. Yet Trump keeps including it in his list, presumably because his base swallows most of what he says indiscriminately.

            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            I do wish Trump would give more specifics about what he wants to accomplish.
            I don't suggest you hold your breath.

            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            The "technology", unless you have it accompanied by automatic weapons or lasers or something (purposely being facetious) doesn't do much unless there are border agents or personnel within a reasonable proximity to address the problem.
            Correct. The point is, technology with the appropriate backing resources will be adequate and less expensive in some places - and a fence with the appropriate backing and resources more effective and less expensive in others. A fence or wall my itself is pointless - people will find ways to go over it or under it or through it.

            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            The data? Usually, if you have such data, you post it.
            My bad. The article sources from the published DHS numbers.
            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

            Comment


            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
              I have never said anything but that CNN is the equivalent of Fox but on the opposite side of the political divide.
              I think you're overlooking two fairly basic things here, one objective and one a bit more subjective.

              Firstly, objectively, if you measured the extent to which each channel gives airtime to the side it is against, you would find that CNN goes out of its way to have Republican representation on-air with Republicans on as many of its panels as possible. Fox is happier to have everyone on air reading from the same playbook.

              Secondly, more subjectively, if you analyzed which wings of their parties CNN and Fox were for and against you would see some significant differences. Fox has been pretty happy to enable the full spectrum of the Republican party, from the Tea Party to Trump to Paul Ryan to Jeb!. There's a good case to be made that Fox itself has been the primary creator of the extreme-right-wing of the Republican party by its constant advocacy of racist tropes and anti-immigrant views in recent years. CNN by contrast, is definitely not a promoter of extreme-leftist views within the Democratic party. In fact I would say its anti-Progressive bias is much stronger than its anti-Republican bias. CNN prefers the establishment and moderates and centrists within both parties and objects to the outliers be they left or right wing.
              "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
              "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
              "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                I think you're overlooking two fairly basic things here, one objective and one a bit more subjective.

                Firstly, objectively, if you measured the extent to which each channel gives airtime to the side it is against, you would find that CNN goes out of its way to have Republican representation on-air with Republicans on as many of its panels as possible. Fox is happier to have everyone on air reading from the same playbook.

                Secondly, more subjectively, if you analyzed which wings of their parties CNN and Fox were for and against you would see some significant differences. Fox has been pretty happy to enable the full spectrum of the Republican party, from the Tea Party to Trump to Paul Ryan to Jeb!. There's a good case to be made that Fox itself has been the primary creator of the extreme-right-wing of the Republican party by its constant advocacy of racist tropes and anti-immigrant views in recent years. CNN by contrast, is definitely not a promoter of extreme-leftist views within the Democratic party. In fact I would say its anti-Progressive bias is much stronger than its anti-Republican bias. CNN prefers the establishment and moderates and centrists within both parties and objects to the outliers be they left or right wing.
                I can't say that I frequent CNN often enough to have an opinion on these details. My perception is based on what I have seen (as limited as it may be) supplemented by evaluations from sites like mediabiasfactcheck and allsides. I don't have cable, so my exposure to CNN and Fox is primarily based on their written articles. I only watch CNN and Fox when I am on the road and it is available in hotel rooms.
                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                Comment


                • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                  This does not surprise me: CNN is about as strongly left and Fox is strongly right - so they should be given about as much credence.
                  I don't agree with that. CNN is left-wing, but I don't think it's as left-wing as Fox is right-wing. The better comparison is MSNBC, though that might actually outdo Fox a little in terms of bias.

                  It's a bit sad that CNN is the least biased of the three major cable news networks.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
                    I don't agree with that. CNN is left-wing, but I don't think it's as left-wing as Fox is right-wing. The better comparison is MSNBC, though that might actually outdo Fox a little in terms of bias.

                    It's a bit sad that CNN is the least biased of the three major cable news networks.
                    Interesting. I would have assessed MSNBC as slightly right of CNN, but on double-checking mediabiasfactcheck and allsides I find they are actually rated slightly left of them. Still, the difference is not significant, and I have explored the evaluation models both sites use and find them pretty sound. I'll pay closer attention, but both are evaluated as about far left as Fox is evaluated far right, which aligns with my own experience.
                    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                      Interesting. I would have assessed MSNBC as slightly right of CNN, but on double-checking mediabiasfactcheck and allsides I find they are actually rated slightly left of them. Still, the difference is not significant, and I have explored the evaluation models both sites use and find them pretty sound. I'll pay closer attention, but both are evaluated as about far left as Fox is evaluated far right, which aligns with my own experience.
                      Truth to the left, propaganda to the right - a fact of nature. Whay it is like that, I'm not sure.
                      “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                      “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                      “not all there” - you know who you are

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                        I think you're overlooking two fairly basic things here, one objective and one a bit more subjective.

                        Firstly, objectively, if you measured the extent to which each channel gives airtime to the side it is against, you would find that CNN goes out of its way to have Republican representation on-air with Republicans on as many of its panels as possible. Fox is happier to have everyone on air reading from the same playbook.

                        Secondly, more subjectively, if you analyzed which wings of their parties CNN and Fox were for and against you would see some significant differences. Fox has been pretty happy to enable the full spectrum of the Republican party, from the Tea Party to Trump to Paul Ryan to Jeb!. There's a good case to be made that Fox itself has been the primary creator of the extreme-right-wing of the Republican party by its constant advocacy of racist tropes and anti-immigrant views in recent years. CNN by contrast, is definitely not a promoter of extreme-leftist views within the Democratic party. In fact I would say its anti-Progressive bias is much stronger than its anti-Republican bias. CNN prefers the establishment and moderates and centrists within both parties and objects to the outliers be they left or right wing.
                        Bull pucky.
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                          Truth to the left, propaganda to the right - a fact of nature. Whay it is like that, I'm not sure.
                          Oh I think that is far too simplistic a model. There are elements of truth, and elements of propaganda, on both sides, FF. I would have a hard time saying which party is more guilty of it. The major fault I find with Republicans is essentially Trump. That Mr. Trump is the best they can find in the entire Republican party is a sad testament to how low they have fallen. I hope they eventually relocate their soul. Trump is a sad reflection of what the party is becoming.
                          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                          Comment

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