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Thread: National Emergency

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    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    National Emergency

    During the Obama administration, when Obama could not get the Republican-led Congress to take action on immigration - he elected to take action by executive order and was pilloried from the right for doing so. "This is not a monarchy" was the constant refrain. Now, Trump is not getting what he wants from a previously Republican-led, and now split, congress. So...he's apparently considering going the route of "declaring a national emergency." I have to wonder how this is any different. Of course, I'm reasonably sure that we will see (again) defense for why it's OK for Trump and this is "different."

    Meanwhile, we have to ask ourselves why, after many years of decline, we are now seeing a surge in illegal immigration under the "anti-immigration president." Let's think for a second. Maybe we have close-to-record-low unemployment and there are many industries hungry for workers. Since we have slashed legal work visas, and there is still significant red tape associated with these visas, businesses in the U.S. are calling for (literally contacting them and telling them they have a job if they can get past border security) and using illegal workers. So the response to this is to make immigration even harder and pour billions of dollars into a wall (which history shows the smugglers pretty much regularly find a way around, over, or under)? The result is enormous amounts spent, industries hamstrung as they wait, and the economy impacted as a result.

    Here's an idea! Why not align the number of work visas with the needs of the various industries, and create mechanisms (like the TSA-PRE mechanism) for streamlining repeat workers. Then the paperwork is eased, the jobs get filled, the economy is benefited, and the attraction for illegal immigrants is reduced.

    When you find yourself with pests in your homes (insects, rodents, etc.), you don't solve the problem simply by putting up barriers. Amazingly, the barriers are almost always breached. You also solve the problem by making sure that food and garbage is not left laying around, and doing everything else you can to reduce the attraction. You can also help the problem by putting those "attractants" far away from the house.

    A barrier is one tool. It is not the solution.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

    -Martin Luther King

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    Oops....... mossrose's Avatar
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    I would have assumed, after all the false claims by many in Hollywood to flee to Canada, and the actual high numbers of illegal aliens into Canada after Trump was elected, that Trump himself would have made the attraction less.

    So the question is, if they all hate Trump so much, why are they trying so hard to get in?

    Oh, and it's terribly racist of you to equate illegal aliens with insects, rodents, etc.


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  3. Amen Sparko, Bill the Cat, Cow Poke, DesertBerean amen'd this post.
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    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mossrose View Post
    I would have assumed, after all the false claims by many in Hollywood to flee to Canada, and the actual high numbers of illegal aliens into Canada after Trump was elected, that Trump himself would have made the attraction less.

    So the question is, if they all hate Trump so much, why are they trying so hard to get in?
    Presumably either because jobs and food are a stronger attractant than Trump is a detractant, or because the potential for harm they face in their homes is still seen as more than the potential for harm they face in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by mossrose View Post
    Oh, and it's terribly racist of you to equate illegal aliens with insects, rodents, etc.
    I figured someone would jump on that. Both have the quality of being "undesirable" (at least to many/most on the right) in what we consider to be our homes, which was the point of the analogy. And we are all, after all, part of the same animal kingdom!
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

    -Martin Luther King

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    Oops....... mossrose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Presumably either because jobs and food are a stronger attractant than Trump is a detractant, or because the potential for harm they face in their homes is still seen as more than the potential for harm they face in the U.S.
    So, you're saying that jobs and food should be in short supply in the US. Got it.


    I figured someone would jump on that. Both have the quality of being "undesirable" (at least to many/most on the right) in what we consider to be our homes, which was the point of the analogy. And we are all, after all, part of the same animal kingdom!
    Sure. Some might believe you when you say that. But, I invoke Godwin's law.


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    Professor Catholicity's Avatar
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    It wasn't ok for Obama to do it, It's not ok for Donald J. Trump. I've made it no secret that I find Trump MORE despicable than Obama in many ways. His moral character is that of a garbage can and his narcissism reeks for a thousand miles to start with.
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    It sets a worrying precedent as "national emergency" would begin to evolve into anything and everything, though it would probably just be the logical next step in the gradual increase of power of the executive branch over the last half century.

    The immigration/drug system is a problem, but if you're fine with declaring this as a national emergency to allocate resources over Congress"s heads, what about another president declaring, say, poverty, a national emergency and dramatically ramping up welfare?
    Last edited by KingsGambit; 01-06-2019 at 10:18 AM.
    For what was given to everyone for the use of all, you have taken for your exclusive use. The earth belongs not to the rich, but to everyone. - Ambrose, 4th century AD

    All cruelty springs from weakness. - Seneca the Younger

  8. Amen NorrinRadd amen'd this post.
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    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mossrose View Post
    So, you're saying that jobs and food should be in short supply in the US. Got it.
    I have no idea how you got THAT out of what I said...

    Quote Originally Posted by mossrose View Post
    Sure. Some might believe you when you say that.
    Whether or not someone believes what I say is not really something I can control.

    Quote Originally Posted by mossrose View Post
    But, I invoke Godwin's law.
    I also have no clue how this applies to anything. I don't recall mentioning either Hitler or Nazis.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

    -Martin Luther King

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    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catholicity View Post
    It wasn't ok for Obama to do it, It's not ok for Donald J. Trump. I've made it no secret that I find Trump MORE despicable than Obama in many ways. His moral character is that of a garbage can and his narcissism reeks for a thousand miles to start with.
    Yours is a rare point of view around here, Cath. I have to admit I find it somewhat refreshing.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

    -Martin Luther King

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    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    It sets a worrying precedent as "national emergency" would begin to evolve into anything and everything, though it would probably just be the logical next step in the gradual increase of power of the executive branch over the last half century.

    The immigration/drug system is a problem, but if you're fine with declaring this as a national emergency to allocate resources over Congress"s heads, what about another president declaring, say, poverty, a national emergency and dramatically ramping up welfare?
    That was pretty much my thought. Or a president could declare the healthcare situation a "national emergency" and then ramp up Medicare/Medicaid. National emergencies should, IMO, be reserved for things that are actual emergencies - not for political issues the two sides cannot come to agreement on.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

    -Martin Luther King

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    tWebber
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    What exactly are the rules/laws granting a president extra power during a "national emergency"?

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