Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

National Emergency

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • National Emergency

    During the Obama administration, when Obama could not get the Republican-led Congress to take action on immigration - he elected to take action by executive order and was pilloried from the right for doing so. "This is not a monarchy" was the constant refrain. Now, Trump is not getting what he wants from a previously Republican-led, and now split, congress. So...he's apparently considering going the route of "declaring a national emergency." I have to wonder how this is any different. Of course, I'm reasonably sure that we will see (again) defense for why it's OK for Trump and this is "different."

    Meanwhile, we have to ask ourselves why, after many years of decline, we are now seeing a surge in illegal immigration under the "anti-immigration president." Let's think for a second. Maybe we have close-to-record-low unemployment and there are many industries hungry for workers. Since we have slashed legal work visas, and there is still significant red tape associated with these visas, businesses in the U.S. are calling for (literally contacting them and telling them they have a job if they can get past border security) and using illegal workers. So the response to this is to make immigration even harder and pour billions of dollars into a wall (which history shows the smugglers pretty much regularly find a way around, over, or under)? The result is enormous amounts spent, industries hamstrung as they wait, and the economy impacted as a result.

    Here's an idea! Why not align the number of work visas with the needs of the various industries, and create mechanisms (like the TSA-PRE mechanism) for streamlining repeat workers. Then the paperwork is eased, the jobs get filled, the economy is benefited, and the attraction for illegal immigrants is reduced.

    When you find yourself with pests in your homes (insects, rodents, etc.), you don't solve the problem simply by putting up barriers. Amazingly, the barriers are almost always breached. You also solve the problem by making sure that food and garbage is not left laying around, and doing everything else you can to reduce the attraction. You can also help the problem by putting those "attractants" far away from the house.

    A barrier is one tool. It is not the solution.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  • #2
    I would have assumed, after all the false claims by many in Hollywood to flee to Canada, and the actual high numbers of illegal aliens into Canada after Trump was elected, that Trump himself would have made the attraction less.

    So the question is, if they all hate Trump so much, why are they trying so hard to get in?

    Oh, and it's terribly racist of you to equate illegal aliens with insects, rodents, etc.


    Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by mossrose View Post
      I would have assumed, after all the false claims by many in Hollywood to flee to Canada, and the actual high numbers of illegal aliens into Canada after Trump was elected, that Trump himself would have made the attraction less.

      So the question is, if they all hate Trump so much, why are they trying so hard to get in?
      Presumably either because jobs and food are a stronger attractant than Trump is a detractant, or because the potential for harm they face in their homes is still seen as more than the potential for harm they face in the U.S.

      Originally posted by mossrose View Post
      Oh, and it's terribly racist of you to equate illegal aliens with insects, rodents, etc.
      I figured someone would jump on that. Both have the quality of being "undesirable" (at least to many/most on the right) in what we consider to be our homes, which was the point of the analogy. And we are all, after all, part of the same animal kingdom!
      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
        Presumably either because jobs and food are a stronger attractant than Trump is a detractant, or because the potential for harm they face in their homes is still seen as more than the potential for harm they face in the U.S.
        So, you're saying that jobs and food should be in short supply in the US. Got it.


        I figured someone would jump on that. Both have the quality of being "undesirable" (at least to many/most on the right) in what we consider to be our homes, which was the point of the analogy. And we are all, after all, part of the same animal kingdom!
        Sure. Some might believe you when you say that. But, I invoke Godwin's law.


        Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

        Comment


        • #5
          It wasn't ok for Obama to do it, It's not ok for Donald J. Trump. I've made it no secret that I find Trump MORE despicable than Obama in many ways. His moral character is that of a garbage can and his narcissism reeks for a thousand miles to start with.
          A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
          George Bernard Shaw

          Comment


          • #6
            It sets a worrying precedent as "national emergency" would begin to evolve into anything and everything, though it would probably just be the logical next step in the gradual increase of power of the executive branch over the last half century.

            The immigration/drug system is a problem, but if you're fine with declaring this as a national emergency to allocate resources over Congress"s heads, what about another president declaring, say, poverty, a national emergency and dramatically ramping up welfare?
            Last edited by KingsGambit; 01-06-2019, 11:18 AM.
            "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by mossrose View Post
              So, you're saying that jobs and food should be in short supply in the US. Got it.
              I have no idea how you got THAT out of what I said...

              Originally posted by mossrose View Post
              Sure. Some might believe you when you say that.
              Whether or not someone believes what I say is not really something I can control.

              Originally posted by mossrose View Post
              But, I invoke Godwin's law.
              I also have no clue how this applies to anything. I don't recall mentioning either Hitler or Nazis.
              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Catholicity View Post
                It wasn't ok for Obama to do it, It's not ok for Donald J. Trump. I've made it no secret that I find Trump MORE despicable than Obama in many ways. His moral character is that of a garbage can and his narcissism reeks for a thousand miles to start with.
                Yours is a rare point of view around here, Cath. I have to admit I find it somewhat refreshing.
                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                  It sets a worrying precedent as "national emergency" would begin to evolve into anything and everything, though it would probably just be the logical next step in the gradual increase of power of the executive branch over the last half century.

                  The immigration/drug system is a problem, but if you're fine with declaring this as a national emergency to allocate resources over Congress"s heads, what about another president declaring, say, poverty, a national emergency and dramatically ramping up welfare?
                  That was pretty much my thought. Or a president could declare the healthcare situation a "national emergency" and then ramp up Medicare/Medicaid. National emergencies should, IMO, be reserved for things that are actual emergencies - not for political issues the two sides cannot come to agreement on.
                  The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                  I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    What exactly are the rules/laws granting a president extra power during a "national emergency"?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
                      What exactly are the rules/laws granting a president extra power during a "national emergency"?
                      I can't say I'm finding a lot of limits. The National Emergencies Act seems to have given Congress a means for ending a declaration of national emergency, but it does not appear to stop their declaration. Perhaps Trump presidency will serve the purpose of underscoring just how much power is still concentrated in the Executive, and how at risk we are when an unscrupulous person holds that office.

                      There is another benefit to Trump's presidency. I suspect a LOT of people are getting an education about our political system like they have never had before. I include myself in that number. I thought I was pretty savvy about our government, but I have learned more in the last two years than the previous 58 years of my life combined. Take this situation. I had never really paid attention to "national emergencies" before, and had no clue that we have 28 active national emergencies, some dating all the way back to Clinton. So far, Trump has declared none (although he used the words with respect to the opioid crisis, he never pulled the correct levers to get it declared an actual national emergency.

                      But the powers a president can assume using the "national emergency" approach are a little scary. As far as I can tell, there are few (if any?) limits - except that now the two houses of Congress can force an end to a declared emergency.
                      Last edited by carpedm9587; 01-06-2019, 01:26 PM.
                      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                        During the Obama administration, when Obama could not get the Republican-led Congress to take action on immigration - he elected to take action by executive order and was pilloried from the right for doing so. "This is not a monarchy" was the constant refrain. Now, Trump is not getting what he wants from a previously Republican-led, and now split, congress. So...he's apparently considering going the route of "declaring a national emergency." I have to wonder how this is any different. Of course, I'm reasonably sure that we will see (again) defense for why it's OK for Trump and this is "different."

                        Meanwhile, we have to ask ourselves why, after many years of decline, we are now seeing a surge in illegal immigration under the "anti-immigration president." Let's think for a second. Maybe we have close-to-record-low unemployment and there are many industries hungry for workers. Since we have slashed legal work visas, and there is still significant red tape associated with these visas, businesses in the U.S. are calling for (literally contacting them and telling them they have a job if they can get past border security) and using illegal workers. So the response to this is to make immigration even harder and pour billions of dollars into a wall (which history shows the smugglers pretty much regularly find a way around, over, or under)? The result is enormous amounts spent, industries hamstrung as they wait, and the economy impacted as a result.

                        Here's an idea! Why not align the number of work visas with the needs of the various industries, and create mechanisms (like the TSA-PRE mechanism) for streamlining repeat workers. Then the paperwork is eased, the jobs get filled, the economy is benefited, and the attraction for illegal immigrants is reduced.

                        When you find yourself with pests in your homes (insects, rodents, etc.), you don't solve the problem simply by putting up barriers. Amazingly, the barriers are almost always breached. You also solve the problem by making sure that food and garbage is not left laying around, and doing everything else you can to reduce the attraction. You can also help the problem by putting those "attractants" far away from the house.

                        A barrier is one tool. It is not the solution.
                        Let's first see if he actually "does an Obama" before we start criticizing him for doing so. That's fair wouldn't you say?

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Catholicity View Post
                          It wasn't ok for Obama to do it, It's not ok for Donald J. Trump. I've made it no secret that I find Trump MORE despicable than Obama in many ways. His moral character is that of a garbage can and his narcissism reeks for a thousand miles to start with.
                          That Trump is a rude, crude and lewd lout there is no doubt. But as we have repeatedly seen genteel, civil and courteous Republicans constantly being pummeled into, figuratively speaking, a bloody mess by the MSM and left (increasingly one and the same thing) that a take-no-prisoners, bare knuckle brawler and street fighter is about the only one left who can stand up to them. This is a sad state of affairs that we have reached.
                          Last edited by rogue06; 01-06-2019, 02:49 PM.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                            The immigration/drug system is a problem, but if you're fine with declaring this as a national emergency to allocate resources over Congress"s heads, what about another president declaring, say, poverty, a national emergency and dramatically ramping up welfare?
                            When the barbarians are literally at the gate, it's a lot easier to make the case for a national emergency than it is for a persistent social issue that his been a part of society since almost the beginning of human history.

                            Also, Trump isn't simply going to declare an emergency. He's going through the proper channels, unlike what carpe implies in his "The sky is falling!" opening post.

                            Source: Donald Trump Thinking ‘Very Strongly’ of Declaring National Emergency at the Border

                            Trump declaring a state of emergency would allow him to immediately direct funding to protect the border, although there are several legal questions about how much he could designate without approval from Congress.

                            White House acting chief of staff Mick Mulvaney confirmed Sunday that the White House was considering the idea.

                            “Presidents have authority to defend the nation,” he said in an interview with CNN. “I’m actually heavily involved with it and have been working with all of the cabinet secretaries to try and find money that we can [actually] use to defend the Southern Border."

                            https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2...rgency-border/

                            © Copyright Original Source

                            Last edited by Mountain Man; 01-06-2019, 06:11 PM.
                            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                            Than a fool in the eyes of God


                            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              That Trump is a rude, crude and lewd lout there is no doubt. But as we have repeatedly seen genteel, civil and courteous Republicans constantly being pummeled into, figuratively speaking, a bloody mess by the MSM and left (increasingly one and the same thing) that a take-no-prisoners, bare knuckle brawler and street fighter is about the only one left who can stand up to them. This is a sad state of affairs that we have reached.
                              Look at how the left viciously tore into Mitt Romney, who is probably the most milquetoast candidate for president we've seen in the past couple of decades. When it comes to politics, nice guys always finish last.
                              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                              Than a fool in the eyes of God


                              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                              Comment

                              Related Threads

                              Collapse

                              Topics Statistics Last Post
                              Started by little_monkey, Yesterday, 04:19 PM
                              16 responses
                              77 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Mountain Man  
                              Started by whag, 03-26-2024, 04:38 PM
                              52 responses
                              266 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Mountain Man  
                              Started by rogue06, 03-26-2024, 11:45 AM
                              25 responses
                              109 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post rogue06
                              by rogue06
                               
                              Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 09:21 AM
                              33 responses
                              195 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Roy
                              by Roy
                               
                              Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 08:34 AM
                              83 responses
                              350 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Sparko
                              by Sparko
                               
                              Working...
                              X