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Will “Christian conservative” be an oxymoron in 2019?

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  • Will “Christian conservative” be an oxymoron in 2019?

    I just read this interesting opinion piece by Matt Lewis who identifies as a (very flawed) Christian and a (somewhat conflicted) conservative. This identification is a little more detailed than the one given in the headline which reads: “I’m a Christian and a Conservative. Trump is Making it Terribly Hard To Be Both.”

    He details how his political and religious views come increasingly at odds under Trump:

    “Trump’s fundamental character deficiencies are part of the problem. We all fall short, but Christians aspire to bring about the fruits of the spirit (love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control). These virtues aren’t just out of step in today’s society—they are utterly countercultural in Trump’s Republican Party.

    Unlike Ronald Reagan’s sunny optimism, rooted in faith in America’s future, Trump motivates via fear. His worldview is rooted in a scarcity mentality that says someone else is stealing your share of the pie. This carnal mindset clashes with a faith that calls us to gladly give to others (I’m speaking here about personal charity, not redistribution via the tax code)—and trusts in God to provide for our daily needs.”

    He sees it from both sides when he says that: “[...] many otherwise decent conservatives entered into this devil’s bargain in 2016—and may do so again in 2020.” but also goes on to say that: “Unfortunately, my Christian conservative friends don’t really have anywhere else to go.”

    Of course the question of abortion is central and he goes on to point out: “As someone who believes protection of the vulnerable extends to the lives of the unborn, switching teams is not an option for me.” Towards the end he goes on to point out that: “Meanwhile, I’m focused on how to align my values and my politics, and that means prioritizing my values—rather than reverse-engineering them to fit my politics.“


    https://www.thedailybeast.com/im-a-c...oth?ref=scroll
    Last edited by Charles; 01-06-2019, 09:04 AM.
    "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

  • #2


    And Chuck posts another smarmy scripture-free diatribe from someone who identities as a Christian trying to guilt us into abandoning Trump. And published in the Daily Beast, no less.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post


      And Chuck posts another smarmy scripture-free diatribe from someone who identities as a Christian trying to guilt us into abandoning Trump. And published in the Daily Beast, no less.
      Be careful, MM. I am sure you have heard about “straw man”, “genetic fallacy” and the like.

      Anyway there is an interesting discussion about Matt’s opinion piece in this video too in case you are interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjeIlE4CeLg
      "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

      Comment


      • #4
        conservative isn't a party, it's a philosophy. Does he mean Christian and Republican?
        "Some people feel guilty about their anxieties and regard them as a defect of faith but they are afflictions, not sins. Like all afflictions, they are, if we can so take them, our share in the passion of Christ." - That Guy Everyone Quotes

        Comment


        • #5
          I agree that Trump favoring Evangelicals look NOTHING like Bush II and Bush I favoring Evangelicals. There has been a drastic split even between types of evangelical Christians. Its quite ugly and I know a number of folks who don't even use the word "Evangelical" to identify themselves because of the negative connotations it carries.
          A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
          George Bernard Shaw

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by hamster View Post
            conservative isn't a party, it's a philosophy. Does he mean Christian and Republican?
            The Republican Party is composed of several factions. There is a conservative wing in the party.
            "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Chuckles View Post
              Be careful, MM. I am sure you have heard about “straw man”, “genetic fallacy” and the like.
              Of course I am. Your opening post is a textbook example.

              I'm still waiting for you to provide scripture to support your notion that Christians are acting contrary to their core beliefs when they support and defend the President.
              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                Of course I am. Your opening post is a textbook example.

                I'm still waiting for you to provide scripture to support your notion that Christians are acting contrary to their core beliefs when they support and defend the President.
                I have provided that several times but we disagree on the interpretation. Or as I would say about current Evangelical "theology": "The text itself got lost in the interpretation".

                With regard to family separations I pointed to Matthew 25:

                34Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, 36I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you visited Me.’
                I am aware that you and others like to think about this as something solely intended for the individual in order to give yourself the freedom of not having to care about it in a political context. I think it is far more complex than that, and what you vote for is ultimately a thing you chose as an individual knowing the consequences it will have for other people. It is correct that no society can solve all problems. But that does not justify crossing the lines of simple basic humanity as it happened with the family separations. Those were the children Jesus identified himself with. Even if the USA is short of money, unwilling or unable to help all of them there is absolutely no need, and it goes against the idea of being unto others, that you try to justify the cruel ways in which they treated these poor children or that you remain silent and still support them though they are obviously doing what is wrong. Jesus identified himself with these children. It may be politically legitimate to say you cannot help all of them. Any inhuman treatment of them is obviously against the idea of doing unto others what you would like them to do to you. It is also in contradiction with the idea that all human beings are of equal worth and are created in the image of God.

                With regard to Trumps "body slam" rhetoric I think, once again, it is rather obvious that this goes against the spirit on how Jesus told us to live (turn the other cheek, do unto others and the like). I am sure you have your interpretations ready to somehow make it all add up but I think you continue to compromise, compromise and compromise. I just posted a thread on Jerry Falwell Jr. in which you can see how I also think he justifies Trump by contradicting scripture.

                You could also look at it from another perspective:

                If protecting yourself, your own country, taking care of your own needs, making a joke of violence, taking innocent children from their parents with no plan on how to reunite them, lie when convenient (and also when not), treating others in ways you would not like to be treated yourself was all perfectly in line with what Jesus said, then why on earth would anyone pay any attention his teaching?

                I know you are probably going to point to the thing about it being an obligation for the individual. But the individual is also a voter. Politics and rhetorics is also about how you treat other people. The idea that you can be a saint in church on sunday and build walls and talk about shithole countries monday to saturday and use harsh rhetorics on anyone you disagree with does not make much sense to me.

                Talking in a broader perspective a very fundamental idea in Christianity is that all people are made in the image of God. Thus no matter their national status, no matter whether they are famous, successful, rich or poor, they are all of equal worth. The idea that God was born as a human being under humble conditions puts even more significance to this idea. Talk as much as you like about separation of Church and state but this basic idea that humans basically are of equal worth is so fundamental in many countries all over the world and I have not found a more consequent description of it than in Christian tradition (that is not to say it is not expressed elsewhere). The broad terms in which refugees or other people in need are described by the Trump administration is the first step towards crossing this line, or in some cases it simply crosses it. It is not only about what they are doing, it is also about how they talk about others. It is a sell out of what is perhaps the most significant and most beautiful part of Christian tradition (it has managed to live on even in countries that may still define themselves as Christian but are more so in a cultural than religious sense).

                I predict this is going to cause me some trouble but I would like to end my post by quoting Bruce Springsteen who said it quite well even before Trump was president (I do realise his words are not Scripture):

                I got God on my side
                And I'm just trying to survive
                What if what you do to survive
                Kills the things you love
                Fear's a powerful thing, baby
                It can turn your heart black you can trust
                It'll take your God filled soul
                And fill it with devils and dust
                Last edited by Charles; 01-06-2019, 12:47 PM.
                "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Well, having once called myself a 'liberal Christian,' I feel the same way about the Democratic party and the left today. I did have a Catholic friend who ceased his support for the Republicans over the election of Trump. But neither of us have switched sides because there aren't great options, politically, for Christians.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by LeaC View Post
                    Well, having once called myself a 'liberal Christian,' I feel the same way about the Democratic party and the left today. I did have a Catholic friend who ceased his support for the Republicans over the election of Trump. But neither of us have switched sides because there aren't great options, politically, for Christians.
                    Interesting perspective. I would add that you don't even need to be a Christian in order to find yourself without great options politically.
                    "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Before you try and guilt Christians into abandoning Trump, you at least need to be correct in your criticisms. For instance, I see that you repeat the liberal lie that Trump has spoken disparagingly of immigrants and refugees in general when he has only ever reserved his sharp remarks for those who enter the country illegally, or who illegitimately claim refugee status (like the infamous caravan that turned down Mexico's offer of asylum and pressed on for hundreds of miles more towards California).

                      And you repeat another lie that you've been corrected on, that the policy of separating children from their parents at the border was inhumane and arbitrary when the truth is that it was only the parents of children who entered illegally who had their children removed to a safe and secure facility where the children were given excellent care while their parents' cases were resolved. The border patrol was simply following the law which predated the Trump administration which said that children could not be incarcerated with their parents, and frankly, this is the same sensible policy that is in place for any lawbreakers in this country. When a parent commits a crime, you don't send their children to jail with them. However, Trump did sign an executive order clarifying the policy and limiting separation if there were adequate facilities for family units, and if the child's welfare was not in danger (keeping in mind that we're talking about parents who subjected their children to a hazardous desert crossing, often with inadequate supplies for the journey with many arriving at the border in poor health).

                      There are a lot of reasons to not like Trump. He's rude and crude and arrogant and brings a lot of unnecessary problems on himself, but I've seen nothing in his governance that I would qualify as outright immoral or that conflicts with my Christian values.
                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                        And you repeat another lie that you've been corrected on, that the policy of separating children from their parents at the border was inhumane and arbitrary when the truth is that it was only the parents of children who entered illegally who had their children removed to a safe and secure facility where the children were given excellent care while their parents' cases were resolved.
                        There is a lot in your post that I disagree with but let's just stick to this part which is a rather good example of where I think you miss the entire point.

                        You are calling it a lie "that the policy of separating children from their parents at the border was inhumane and arbitrary when the truth is that it was only the parents of children who entered illegally who had their children removed to a safe and secure facility where the children were given excellent care while their parents' cases were resolved." I don't remember having said it was arbitrary but inhuman it was no matter how much sugar you would like to pour on it.

                        Let's look at it from the perspective of the children. Did they chose to go? Is it their fault that their parents did something criminal? What would you blame them for in any way, shape or form? They are innocent children whose parents may or may not (on that we may disagree) have done something wrong. So the children are innocent.

                        These innocent children were created in Gods image? Right? Jesus identifies himself with these children, right? You are a parent, right? You know very well that small children are dependent on their parents to feel safe. You know it would be the worst nightmare for your children to be taken away from you and your wife in a foreign country, right? You know perfectly well that good material conditions or complete strangers who did their best to try to take care of them (not saying that was the case in the USA) would still leave them desperat, right? You also know perfectly well that had you chosen to do what the parents of these children did, your children would have had no choice but to go along. You are of course also aware that if your parents had done the same, you would find yourself in the situation of these children and it would have been a complete nightmare for you. You can claim as much as you like that neither you or your parents would have done it, but that does nothing to change the fact that the children whose parents did this were completely innocent and had no choice. A situation you would never have liked to see yourself in and a situation you would not even be able to bare the though of seeing your children in. But for these children (with whom Jesus actually identified himself) it is for some strange reason ok.

                        You are an individual and no one is forcing you to support it or make statements about it that any parent would know is completely wrong. You also conveniently forgot to mention how they had problems with reuniting these innocent children with their parents after they had been given the "excellent" care. Remember Jesus identified himself with these children. You once again managed to turn your blind eye on their innocence and their needs in order to create an alibi for those in power. I think this is what current Evangelical Trump supporters are doing again and again.
                        Last edited by Charles; 01-06-2019, 01:28 PM.
                        "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Chuckles View Post
                          They are innocent children whose parents may or may not (on that we may disagree) have done something wrong
                          The parents definitely did something wrong. It is illegal to enter the US by simply crossing the border, so the parents are justifiably arrested, and the children receive excellent care while their parents' cases are resolved.

                          So what's the problem?
                          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                          Than a fool in the eyes of God


                          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I am quite comfortable identifying as both Christian and conservative. Trump is not my standard-bearer (and is not particularly conservative, in any case). He does some things which align with conservative principles, which I like. He does some things which markedly fail to align with Christian principles, which I don't like.

                            Unfortunately, the other significant party does no things whatsoever which align with conservative principles, and also does things which markedly fail to align with Christian principles.
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Charles View Post
                              I just read this interesting opinion piece by Matt Lewis who identifies as a (very flawed) Christian and a (somewhat conflicted) conservative. This identification is a little more detailed than the one given in the headline which reads: “I’m a Christian and a Conservative. Trump is Making it Terribly Hard To Be Both.”

                              He details how his political and religious views come increasingly at odds under Trump:

                              “Trump’s fundamental character deficiencies are part of the problem. We all fall short, but Christians aspire to bring about the fruits of the spirit (love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control). These virtues aren’t just out of step in today’s society—they are utterly countercultural in Trump’s Republican Party.

                              Unlike Ronald Reagan’s sunny optimism, rooted in faith in America’s future, Trump motivates via fear. His worldview is rooted in a scarcity mentality that says someone else is stealing your share of the pie. This carnal mindset clashes with a faith that calls us to gladly give to others (I’m speaking here about personal charity, not redistribution via the tax code)—and trusts in God to provide for our daily needs.”

                              He sees it from both sides when he says that: “[...] many otherwise decent conservatives entered into this devil’s bargain in 2016—and may do so again in 2020.” but also goes on to say that: “Unfortunately, my Christian conservative friends don’t really have anywhere else to go.”

                              Of course the question of abortion is central and he goes on to point out: “As someone who believes protection of the vulnerable extends to the lives of the unborn, switching teams is not an option for me.” Towards the end he goes on to point out that: “Meanwhile, I’m focused on how to align my values and my politics, and that means prioritizing my values—rather than reverse-engineering them to fit my politics.“


                              https://www.thedailybeast.com/im-a-c...oth?ref=scroll
                              Translation: “Vote for doormats that will let liberals walk all over them.”

                              Save me the guilt trip. Trump is the result of liberals running over consertives for years and years.
                              "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                              GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

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