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Jerry Falwell's two kingdoms

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  • Jerry Falwell's two kingdoms

    There has been some discussion on comments made by Jerry Falwell Jr. on his support to Trump. An interesting part of what he has said goes like this:

    There's two kingdoms. There’s the earthly kingdom and the heavenly kingdom. In the heavenly kingdom the responsibility is to treat others as you’d like to be treated. In the earthly kingdom, the responsibility is to choose leaders who will do what’s best for your country. Think about it. Why have Americans been able to do more to help people in need around the world than any other country in history? It’s because of free enterprise, freedom, ingenuity, entrepreneurism and wealth. A poor person never gave anyone a job. A poor person never gave anybody charity, not of any real volume. It’s just common sense to me. https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifes...=.b2f053ca05ba
    I much prefer the teaching of Jesus:

    Luke 21, 1 - 4
    Then Jesus looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the treasury, and He saw a poor widow put in two small copper coins.

    “Truly I tell you,” He said, "this poor widow has put in more than all the others. For they all contributed out of their surplus, but she out of her poverty has put in all she had to live on.”
    I also note another strange thing about. He Falwell says: "In the earthly kingdom, the responsibility is to choose leaders who will do what’s best for your country." Pay attention to how he tries to justify it: "Why have Americans been able to do more to help people in need around the world than any other country in history? It’s because of free enterprise, freedom, ingenuity, entrepreneurism and wealth." So his justification for only caring about what is best for your own country is that it helps other around the world. So there is this almost contradictory thing to it. Your responsibility is to be selfish. But the justification for being selfish is that it is better for the others.... Well...

    I think Falwell needs to think twice...
    Last edited by Charles; 01-06-2019, 11:15 AM.
    "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

  • #2
    Falwell has a point but I would quibble majorly with how he articulated it. (And I already started a separate thread on his comments about charity, which I do oppose, and my post isn't going to address those comments at all.)

    For Christians, the tension isn't so much earthly values vs. God's values (and I think Falwell is wrong on that point) as it is the now vs. the not yet. We know what the values of the kingdom of God are and we work toward these values, but they will not be fully recognized until Jesus returns. Thus, some compromises have to be made in the meantime, with resources being limited and human nature being what it is. (This is the major point of John Stackhouse's Making the Best Of It, a book that has heavily influenced my views on ethics. Stackhouse is also uber-critical of Falwell's comments, for the record.)

    What sort of compromises do I have in mind? I don't mean actively endorsing or tolerating evil (Stackhouse makes the point that there are some things that Christians unequivocally oppose, giving the examples of pornography and tyranny). But a major example is the use of force. Jesus said "blessed are the peacemakers", and peace is a value of the kingdom of God. In the present world, though, peace cannot be achieved without the use of force, which is a concession to the realities of this world. The main thesis of his book is that our actions on this world should act toward increasing shalom, essentially, the values of God's kingdom. Going back to Falwell's context, I don't think his support for Trump in general counts as achieving shalom so much as it represents a political expression of "the ends justify the means".
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
      Falwell has a point but I would quibble majorly with how he articulated it. (And I already started a separate thread on his comments about charity, which I do oppose, and my post isn't going to address those comments at all.)

      For Christians, the tension isn't so much earthly values vs. God's values (and I think Falwell is wrong on that point) as it is the now vs. the not yet. We know what the values of the kingdom of God are and we work toward these values, but they will not be fully recognized until Jesus returns. Thus, some compromises have to be made in the meantime, with resources being limited and human nature being what it is. (This is the major point of John Stackhouse's Making the Best Of It, a book that has heavily influenced my views on ethics. Stackhouse is also uber-critical of Falwell's comments, for the record.)

      What sort of compromises do I have in mind? I don't mean actively endorsing or tolerating evil (Stackhouse makes the point that there are some things that Christians unequivocally oppose, giving the examples of pornography and tyranny). But a major example is the use of force. Jesus said "blessed are the peacemakers", and peace is a value of the kingdom of God. In the present world, though, peace cannot be achieved without the use of force, which is a concession to the realities of this world. The main thesis of his book is that our actions on this world should act toward increasing shalom, essentially, the values of God's kingdom. Going back to Falwell's context, I don't think his support for Trump in general counts as achieving shalom so much as it represents a political expression of "the ends justify the means".
      Thank you. A very interesting post that i would not "amen" since there are parts of it I would not really agree with but I liked to read it and it made me think (unbelievable as it may sound to some).
      "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

      Comment


      • #4
        Eh, Falwell Jr. is just another con man like his father. It's no wonder he's a Trump supporter, 2 peas in a pod!

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Charles View Post
          There has been some discussion on comments made by Jerry Falwell Jr. on his support to Trump. An interesting part of what he has said goes like this:



          I much prefer the teaching of Jesus:



          I also note another strange thing about. He Falwell says: "In the earthly kingdom, the responsibility is to choose leaders who will do what’s best for your country." Pay attention to how he tries to justify it: "Why have Americans been able to do more to help people in need around the world than any other country in history? It’s because of free enterprise, freedom, ingenuity, entrepreneurism and wealth." So his justification for only caring about what is best for your own country is that it helps other around the world. So there is this almost contradictory thing to it. Your responsibility is to be selfish. But the justification for being selfish is that it is better for the others.... Well...

          I think Falwell needs to think twice...
          I"m shocked, shocked, that you failed to link to where we'd addressed this already. Your eisegesis and misrepresentation of Mr. Falwell are duly noted.

          Jerry Falwell, like his father, is far from theologically perfect. Ripping his (and Jesus') statements out of context, however, is not an appropriate way to address that. Can you address his comments fairly? We'll see.
          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
          sigpic
          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
            I"m shocked, shocked, that you failed to link to where we'd addressed this already. Your eisegesis and misrepresentation of Mr. Falwell are duly noted.

            Jerry Falwell, like his father, is far from theologically perfect. Ripping his (and Jesus') statements out of context, however, is not an appropriate way to address that. Can you address his comments fairly? We'll see.
            To be somewhat fair to him, I posted that thread in a Christian-only area that he may not have seen.
            "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

            Comment


            • #7
              The two kingdom concept has been standard doctrine since the Reformation. It has often been the preferred option among people who wished not to have a unified kingdom that thusly is run under the Pope.

              Although I have not paid any attention to Falwell's doctrines, this is not a doctrine that is aberrant.

              The original post showed no inclination to have the Pope or other religious figure dictating the policies of government. I assume then that you too would rather have Christians working under a two kingdom concept.

              Now if you like Jesus's teachings better, I would suggest you follow Jesus. His yoke is light.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Charles View Post
                There has been some discussion on comments made by Jerry Falwell Jr. on his support to Trump. An interesting part of what he has said goes like this:



                I much prefer the teaching of Jesus: <blah blah>
                This silly confusion of yours was adequately dealt with in the original thread on this topic.

                I also note another strange thing about. He Falwell says: "In the earthly kingdom, the responsibility is to choose leaders who will do what’s best for your country." Pay attention to how he tries to justify it: "Why have Americans been able to do more to help people in need around the world than any other country in history? It’s because of free enterprise, freedom, ingenuity, entrepreneurism and wealth." So his justification for only caring about what is best for your own country is that it helps other around the world. So there is this almost contradictory thing to it. Your responsibility is to be selfish. But the justification for being selfish is that it is better for the others.... Well...

                I think Falwell needs to think twice...
                You could try advocating for the converse, i.e. that we (as a nation) give generously (to other nations), so that it will be given (by God, presumably) unto us, as taught by Jesus in Luke 6; so it would still involve self-interest. But then, we criticize Prosperity Preachers for this sort of "give to get" preaching to individual believers, so why would we apply it to the secular nation as a whole?

                The bottom line is that, as a nation, we can better benefit other nations if we have an overflow with which to do so.
                Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                Beige Federalist.

                Nationalist Christian.

                "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                Justice for Matthew Perna!

                Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                  To be somewhat fair to him, I posted that thread in a Christian-only area that he may not have seen.
                  Ah, ok. I always go from the "New Posts" link except for the two or three times a year I actually start a thread, so I forget about those "zones."
                  Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                  Beige Federalist.

                  Nationalist Christian.

                  "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                  Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                  Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                  Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                  Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                  Justice for Matthew Perna!

                  Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    With a very slight modification, here is my reply from the other thread on this.

                    ------------------

                    Since I am somehow inexplicably able to penetrate WaPo's force-field, I will quote and comment on a few portions besides what Bill the Cat provided in Reply 10.

                    Source: WaPo

                    You said recently that conservatives and Christians should stop electing nice guys. Aren’t Christians supposed to be nice guys?

                    Of course, of course. But that’s where people get confused. I almost laugh out loud when I hear Democrats saying things like, “Jesus said suffer the little children to come unto me” and try to use that as the reason we should open up our borders.

                    It’s such a distortion of the teachings of Jesus to say that what he taught us to do personally — to love our neighbors as ourselves, help the poor — can somehow be imputed on a nation. Jesus never told Caesar how to run Rome. He went out of his way to say that’s the earthly kingdom, I’m about the heavenly kingdom and I’m here to teach you how to treat others, how to help others, but when it comes to serving your country, you render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s. It’s a distortion of the teaching of Christ to say Jesus taught love and forgiveness and therefore the United States as a nation should be loving and forgiving, and just hand over everything we have to every other part of the world. That’s not what Jesus taught. You almost have to believe that this is a theocracy to think that way, to think that public policy should be dictated by the teachings of Jesus.

                    So, the government you want is one free of religious association?

                    Yes. The government should be led by somebody who is going to do what’s in the best interest of the government and its people. And I believe that’s what Jesus thought, too.

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    This part above is foundational to the article as a whole.


                    Source: WaPo

                    You pushed for national leaders to use the term “radical Islamic terrorism” when describing Muslims who are terrorists. Should leaders call it “white supremacist terrorism” when we have violent acts by white supremacists in this country?

                    Sure, if a terrorist is someone who is trying to overthrow a political regime. I guess it depends on what your definition of terrorism is. Anybody who kills anybody else or commits violence against anybody else because of their race is horrible. It’s just as bad as the 9/11 attack.

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    This is good, except he should have gone out of his way to include Antifa as terrorists. Wuss.


                    Source: WaPo

                    You and other white evangelical leaders have strongly supported President Trump. What about him exemplifies Christianity and earns him your support?

                    What earns him my support is his business acumen. Our country was so deep in debt and so mismanaged by career politicians that we needed someone who was not a career politician, but someone who’d been successful in business to run the country like a business. That’s the reason I supported him.

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    His reasons are not the same as mine, but they are fine.

                    Notice he did NOT claim that anything about Trump "exemplifies Christianity." At this point, I will again bring up an underused point that I have not noticed anyone else addressing: If "exemplifying Christianity" is important, Christians would not vote for a pseudo-Christian cultist such as Romney or any other Mormon.


                    Source: WaPo

                    Is there anything President Trump could do that would endanger that support from you or other evangelical leaders?

                    No.

                    That’s the shortest answer we’ve had so far.

                    Only because I know that he only wants what’s best for this country, and I know anything he does, it may not be ideologically “conservative,” but it’s going to be what’s best for this country, and I can’t imagine him doing anything that’s not good for the country.

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    The unqualified "No" is astonishingly stupid. I don't *expect* him to do any such thing, but if, e.g., he did something like diddling a young intern with a cigar during his Presidency, I would totally abandon him and call for his resignation, and I hope all Evangelicals would do likewise.

                    A better answer might have been, "Nothing he could do would persuade me that supporting him over Hilary or any pro-choice liberal was the wrong decision."


                    Source: WaPo

                    Is it hypocritical for evangelical leaders to support a leader who has advocated violence and who has committed adultery and lies often? I understand that a person can be forgiven their sins, but should that person be leading the country?

                    When Jesus said we’re all sinners, he really meant all of us, everybody. I don’t think you can choose a president based on their personal behavior because even if you choose the one that you think is the most decent — let’s say you decide Mitt Romney. Nobody could be a more decent human being, better family man. But there might be things that he’s done that we just don’t know about. So you don’t choose a president based on how good they are; you choose a president based on what their policies are. That’s why I don’t think it’s hypocritical.

                    There’s two kingdoms. There’s the earthly kingdom and the heavenly kingdom. In the heavenly kingdom the responsibility is to treat others as you’d like to be treated. In the earthly kingdom, the responsibility is to choose leaders who will do what’s best for your country. Think about it. Why have Americans been able to do more to help people in need around the world than any other country in history? It’s because of free enterprise, freedom, ingenuity, entrepreneurism and wealth. A poor person never gave anyone a job. A poor person never gave anybody charity, not of any real volume. It’s just common sense to me.

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    This is the portion previously cited. I'm disappointed that he missed an excellent opportunity to denigrate Romney's religion. (I am mainly in favor of doing so in cases where it is one that pretends to be Christian.)

                    It honestly baffles me that people insist on imposing Mark 12 / Luke 21 on this. He is not denigrating poor people, he is advocating for an economy that reduces their number.
                    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                    Beige Federalist.

                    Nationalist Christian.

                    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                    Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                    Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                    Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                    Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                    Justice for Matthew Perna!

                    Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I see Chuck is at it again, this time with a topic that Christians are apparently supposed to disagree with even though he fails once more to provide any scriptural support that would compel us to side with him.
                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Charles View Post
                        I much prefer the teaching of Jesus:
                        Then ask Him for forgiveness and accept Him as Lord of your life.
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Charles View Post
                          There has been some discussion on comments made by Jerry Falwell Jr. on his support to Trump... I much prefer the teaching of Jesus:
                          Jerry was not talking about Christian charity from an individual Christian's perspective. Jesus was. You're taking what both of them were saying out of context.

                          I also note another strange thing about. He Falwell says: "In the earthly kingdom, the responsibility is to choose leaders who will do what’s best for your country." Pay attention to how he tries to justify it: "Why have Americans been able to do more to help people in need around the world than any other country in history? It’s because of free enterprise, freedom, ingenuity, entrepreneurism and wealth." So his justification for only caring about what is best for your own country is that it helps other around the world. So there is this almost contradictory thing to it. Your responsibility is to be selfish. But the justification for being selfish is that it is better for the others.... Well...

                          I think Falwell needs to think twice...
                          A government's responsibility is to help where it can. Has nothing to do with selfishness, or me personally for that matter.
                          That's what
                          - She

                          Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                          - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                          I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                          - Stephen R. Donaldson

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            Then ask Him for forgiveness and accept Him as Lord of your life.
                            I think when Chuck says, "I much prefer the teaching of Jesus," that he has this mind...

                            Buddy_christ.jpg
                            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                            Than a fool in the eyes of God


                            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                              I think when Chuck says, "I much prefer the teaching of Jesus," that he has this mind...

                              [ATTACH=CONFIG]34283[/ATTACH]
                              Yes, as well as only agreeing with the distorted versions of what Jesus actually said and ignoring the real meat - the eternal stuff.
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment

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