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Specified complexity

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  • Originally posted by Seeker
    Are there THREE different concepts of 'information'? One by Spetner, one by Gitt and another by Dembski? In what they differ from one another?
    Spetner's is also a Creationist and his argument conclusions are similar to Dempski's, but incomplete and not as comprehensive. He more asserts 'random' mutations cannot increase "information" for evolution to take place. Of course, mutations are not random except for the unpredictability of the occurance of individual mutations within the range of possible mutations. One thing he has in common with Dempski, and most Creationist pseudoscientists is the misuse the concept of 'randomness.' They pretty much describe 'randomness as 'anything can happen.'

    Source: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/information/spetner.html


    Dr. Spetner however claims that random mutations cannot increase "information". In his claim, Spetner uses two separate metrics of information. One is an "expectation" measure whereby an ensemble of different strings has less information that an ensemble of identical strings. This will surprise people familiar with standard Shannon Weaver information or Algorithmic information, but is a valid formulation under particular circumstances. I will not go into this in any depth because Spetner himself doesn't.

    © Copyright Original Source

    Last edited by shunyadragon; 05-04-2019, 03:32 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Seeker
      Are there THREE different concepts of 'information'? One by Spetner, one by Gitt and another by Dembski? In what they differ from one another?
      Gitt is a German engineer, and his argument for 'information' is simple and goes directly to theology claiming all 'information' is Created by Jesus Christ.' I may add more concerning his argument, but I do not consider it constructive.
      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • Thanks shunyadragon. Your posts have been informative.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
          Gitt is a German engineer, and his argument for 'information' is simple and goes directly to theology claiming all 'information' is Created by Jesus Christ.' I may add more concerning his argument, but I do not consider it constructive.
          Even though Gitt, Dempski, and Spetner all had the same view that evolution was either impossible or very very unlikely based on their theory of 'information,' there is a bit of a feud among the ID community concerning their different views.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
            Even though Gitt, Dempski, and Spetner all had the same view that evolution was either impossible or very very unlikely based on their theory of 'information,' ...
            Naturally, since their definitions of 'information' all effectively started out as 'let's define something that evolution can't produce'.
            Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

            MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
            MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

            seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Roy View Post
              It is falsifiable The Cre/ID ideas about irreducible complexity and information increase are attempts to falsify evolution. There are many other things that could falsify evolution, including a very young earth, an inability to arrange lifeforms into a tree of descent, a genetic structure that didn't mutate, or discovering a bunch of gnomes in an underground network who manufacture eggs then sneak out at night and implant them in nests and ovaries.

              That the universe and life arising by wholly natural processes hasn't been falsified doesn't mean that it couldn't be falsified.
              Hi Roy,

              My friend from the OP said that irreducibly complexity at least presents itself as a real potential falsificator of Darwin's theory, while ''information increase'' and ''explanatory filter'' (or ''specified complexity'', for that matter) merely flourish their question begging claims. What do you think about that? Do you agree? Do you think IC is somehow superior to the other arguments?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                So - most evolutionary development results from picking up additional genes along the way? Inserted perhaps by viruses and such?
                Incomplete, 'as such.' There are a number of types genetic mutations that are involved in the evolution of life including duplication of genes, actual mutation of the genes within species, and symbiotic relationships with other species as in the endosymbiotic mitochondria becoming part of the cell.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Seeker View Post
                  Hi Roy,

                  My friend from the OP said that irreducibly complexity at least presents itself as a real potential falsificator of Darwin's theory, while ''information increase'' and ''explanatory filter'' (or ''specified complexity'', for that matter) merely flourish their question begging claims. What do you think about that? Do you agree? Do you think IC is somehow superior to the other arguments?
                  Hi Seeker,

                  IC was at least defined well enough to test it, even though it wouldn't have ever falsified evolution. However, IC has since, due to Behe's redefinition of it as something related to multiple genetic mutations, become as vague and slippery as the others.
                  Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                  MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                  MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                  seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Roy
                    It is falsifiable The Cre/ID ideas about irreducible complexity and information increase are attempts to falsify evolution. There are many other things that could falsify evolution, including a very young earth, an inability to arrange lifeforms into a tree of descent, a genetic structure that didn't mutate, or discovering a bunch of gnomes in an underground network who manufacture eggs then sneak out at night and implant them in nests and ovaries.

                    That the universe and life arising by wholly natural processes hasn't been falsified doesn't mean that it couldn't be falsified.
                    I have a problem with this conclusion in bold, based on the scientific philosophy of falsification. Yes, the scientific methods of falsification is open ended and always subject to new evidence and discoveries, but the overwhelming objective verifiable evidence, and predictability of the theories and hypothesis concerning the science of evolution and the natural origins of our universe demonstrates that they have been falsified beyond any reasonable doubt. There is a point in science where the process of falsification is reasonably conclusive, and yes subject to modification by new discoveries and evidence.

                    Is there a falsifiable alternative that is not based on natural origins of our physical existence.
                    Last edited by shunyadragon; 05-21-2019, 09:03 AM.
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                      Hi Seeker,

                      IC was at least defined well enough to test it, even though it wouldn't have ever falsified evolution. However, IC has since, due to Behe's redefinition of it as something related to multiple genetic mutations, become as vague and slippery as the others.
                      The vague and slippery nature of IC make it unfalsifiable, because of a key problem of unfalsifiable proposals to falsify the conclusion that complexity cannot have occurred naturally. The main arguments by IC is that at present science is unable to adequately explain some complex nature of life. This is a perpetual motion flaw and negative assumption that can never be adequately falsified.
                      Last edited by shunyadragon; 05-21-2019, 09:00 AM.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                        "Many" is correct. Some enzymes are RNA.

                        Wieland is also wrong about DNA having specified complexity, for the reason given on the first page of this thread: DNA sequences aren't specified anywhere.
                        So the majority of enzymes are proteins, and the others are made up of RNA? I understood it correctly?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Seeker View Post
                          So the majority of enzymes are proteins, and the others are made up of RNA? I understood it correctly?
                          Yup. It's possible that there may be some that are neither protein nor RNA, e.g. DNA, but I'm not aware of any. I did find this.
                          Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                          MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                          MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                          seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                            Yup. It's possible that there may be some that are neither protein nor RNA, e.g. DNA, but I'm not aware of any. I did find this.
                            Thank you. I will try to notify the error to CMI.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Seeker View Post
                              Thank you. I will try to notify the error to CMI.
                              Any time. Good luck with CMI!
                              Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                              MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                              MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                              seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                              Comment

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