Announcement

Collapse

Deeper Waters Forum Guidelines

Notice – The ministries featured in this section of TheologyWeb are guests of this site and in some cases not bargaining for the rough and tumble world of debate forums, though sometimes they are. Additionally, this area is frequented and highlighted for guests who also very often are not acclimated to debate fora. As such, the rules of conduct here will be more strict than in the general forum. This will be something within the discretion of the Moderators and the Ministry Representative, but we simply ask that you conduct yourselves in a manner considerate of the fact that these ministries are our invited guests. You can always feel free to start a related thread in general forum without such extra restrictions. Thank you.

Deeper Waters is founded on the belief that the Christian community has long been in the shallow end of Christianity while there are treasures of the deep waiting to be discovered. Too many in the shallow end are not prepared when they go out beyond those waters and are quickly devoured by sharks. We wish to aid Christians to equip them to navigate the deeper waters of the ocean of truth and come up with treasure in the end.

We also wish to give special aid to those often neglected, that is, the disabled community. This is especially so since our founders are both on the autism spectrum and have a special desire to reach those on that spectrum. While they are a special emphasis, we seek to help others with any disability realize that God can use them and that they are as the Psalmist says, fearfully and wonderfully made.

General TheologyWeb forum rules: here.
See more
See less

Book Plunge: Understanding Four Views on the Lord's Supper

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Symbolically, yes.
    In the sense that it was occasionally referred to as a symbol in ancient times, yeah. In the way people generally mean it today, no; it's more than that. A symbol was viewed as something that was a mystical representation of the prototype, containing something of its essence.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
    sigpic
    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

    Comment


    • #17
      The whole thing about it being less special if done every week doesn't make sense to me.

      Is the sermon less special?
      Is the offering?
      Is the worship?
      Is the prayer?

      If your spouse wanted intimacy with you on a weekly basis at least, would it be less special?

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
        The whole thing about it being less special if done every week doesn't make sense to me.

        Is the sermon less special?
        Is the offering?
        Is the worship?
        Is the prayer?

        If your spouse wanted intimacy with you on a weekly basis at least, would it be less special?
        I guess I see the Lord's Supper as more 'special' than all of those things.

        Kinda like the Day of Atonement was special, but only once a year.

        Feasts and Festivals were special, but only once a year.
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Apologiaphoenix View Post
          The whole thing about it being less special if done every week doesn't make sense to me.
          OK, so you're making me think....

          these things....

          Is the sermon less special?
          Is the offering?
          Is the worship?
          Is the prayer?
          ...can, indeed, become "less special" with frequency.

          Pastors always seem to be looking for a new way to communicate or to capture the imagination of the congregants - it can't be just the same sermon every Sunday. This is why it's interesting to have a guest preacher from time to time.

          My tithes and offerings (the baseline, anyway) get automatically transferred from my account to the church - with the special mission offerings or special events being over and above, where I actually write a check.

          The worship? This is an age old quandary of its own -- if we're referring to the congregation's participation in the service, and there always seems to be an attempt to "mix it up" or enhance it, because it can, indeed, become stale.

          Prayer? I know that the prayer my wife and I do before meals has become rather repetitive - I'm aware of that, and try to change it up some, as well.

          So, yeah, those things, because of the frequency, can become rather 'programmed'.

          If your spouse wanted intimacy with you on a weekly basis at least, would it be less special?
          This is one of the reasons so many marriages fail - 'intimacy' becomes routine or.... couples often look for ways to 'shake things up', and intimacy in marriage is a very common problem.
          If it's only "having sex", it can really be a problem.

          I'm not trying to argue here - I'm just thinking out loud. And, yeah, maybe it's ME!
          Last edited by Cow Poke; 01-09-2019, 09:18 AM.
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            OK, so you're making me think....

            these things....



            ...can, indeed, become "less special" with frequency.
            Can be, but they don't have to be. There's a saying that people don't stop playing because they get old. They get old because they stop playing. If we get tired of something good, the problem is more often with us than with the thing.

            Pastors always seem to be looking for a new way to communicate or to capture the imagination of the congregants - it can't be just the same sermon every Sunday. This is why it's interesting to have a guest preacher from time to time.
            Honestly, one of the best books I've read about churches dying is Why Men Hate Going To Church. Quite revealing.

            My tithes and offerings (the baseline, anyway) get automatically transferred from my account to the church - with the special mission offerings or special events being over and above, where I actually write a check.
            But there is still usually an offering every week. A church can take money every week but they can't have fellowship with Communion?

            The worship? This is an age old quandary of its own -- if we're referring to the congregation's participation in the service, and there always seems to be an attempt to "mix it up" or enhance it, because it can, indeed, become stale.
            The above book is again helpful. Much of it happened because people went to Contemporary Christian Music concerts and wanted to bring that passion to the church and so a service became more like a concert. I have a friend who does worship ministry and he told me about a time a worship leader leading youth was once told it must be hard to tell if the children are really worshiping or not. He replied it was actually easy. If they go outside the church and their lives match what they said and sang in here, then they were really worshiping.

            Prayer? I know that the prayer my wife and I do before meals has become rather repetitive - I'm aware of that, and try to change it up some, as well.
            And this is a valid concern. That's one reason I'm hesitant about rituals many times. Prayer has become like that, but I think it's more often a lack of wonder of God.

            So, yeah, those things, because of the frequency, can become rather 'programmed'.
            I think we're too quick to assume it's because of frequency.

            This is one of the reasons so many marriages fail - 'intimacy' becomes routine or.... couples often look for ways to 'shake things up', and intimacy in marriage is a very common problem.
            If it's only "having sex", it can really be a problem.

            I'm not trying to argue here - I'm just thinking out loud. And, yeah, maybe it's ME!
            I know you're not trying to argue. Intimacy can become routine, but honestly I don't understand how. For me things are always new with Allie. I strive to never lose sight of the gift of her. I think a problem is when intimacy doesn't happen in marriage that leads to far more failed marriages.

            I also think this about Communion while holding to a more Memorial view. The first Sunday after Allie and I got back from our honeymoon, our church had Communion. Allie had hurt her leg and was in the back of the church watching the service on a TV. She couldn't get Communion herself, so I had to bring the bread and grape juice back to her. It really showed me what a great privilege it was to partake in a service like this and have the first recipient be my new wife.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              OK, so you're making me think....

              these things....



              ...can, indeed, become "less special" with frequency.

              Pastors always seem to be looking for a new way to communicate or to capture the imagination of the congregants - it can't be just the same sermon every Sunday.
              This seems to me to be sort of... preaching for entertainment. When the preaching is the high point (and by far the biggest chunk time-wise) of the service, I suppose that can be a temptation - though even in my Southern Baptist days, the sermon was just good, solid exegesis. The only time I ran into this idea much was at the non-denominational church I was also attending a fair bit (services were at different times, so I could do both).

              On a completely different note, a major reason why the Russian Orthodox Church survived under communism is because the services were the same. They weren't allowed to teach, but you can't read, much less participate in, Orthodox services without picking up the theology of the Church. The sermon may have been perforce reduced to pap, but the authorities didn't dare to attempt to change the services themselves.
              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
              sigpic
              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                This seems to me to be sort of... preaching for entertainment.
                Entertainment? Jesus often found creative ways to get His message across -- If the preacher believes the Gospel is important, he doesn't just want to stand there and babble -- he wants to be an effective communicator.

                "Entertainment"? While there's obviously a lot of that going on these days, I'm a little disappointed you'd manage to get that from what I was saying.

                When the preaching is the high point (and by far the biggest chunk time-wise) of the service,
                It's about half of the service in my experience

                I suppose that can be a temptation -


                though even in my Southern Baptist days, the sermon was just good, solid exegesis.
                Expository preaching, yes.

                The only time I ran into this idea much was at the non-denominational church I was also attending a fair bit (services were at different times, so I could do both).

                On a completely different note, a major reason why the Russian Orthodox Church survived under communism is because the services were the same. They weren't allowed to teach, but you can't read, much less participate in, Orthodox services without picking up the theology of the Church. The sermon may have been perforce reduced to pap, but the authorities didn't dare to attempt to change the services themselves.
                I'm still confused how you got here from what I said.

                I'm becoming more convinced than ever that you and I just seem to be incapable of communication.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                  This seems to me to be sort of... preaching for entertainment. When the preaching is the high point (and by far the biggest chunk time-wise) of the service, I suppose that can be a temptation - though even in my Southern Baptist days, the sermon was just good, solid exegesis. The only time I ran into this idea much was at the non-denominational church I was also attending a fair bit (services were at different times, so I could do both).

                  On a completely different note, a major reason why the Russian Orthodox Church survived under communism is because the services were the same. They weren't allowed to teach, but you can't read, much less participate in, Orthodox services without picking up the theology of the Church. The sermon may have been perforce reduced to pap, but the authorities didn't dare to attempt to change the services themselves.
                  Where do you get the idea that these sorts of things constitute entertainment?

                  The book of Hebrews was almost certainly a spoken homily at first, and there are obvious examples of verbal techniques used to "communicate or capture the imagination of the congregants" (the five warnings weaved throughout, sometimes softened immediately after to lighten the blow, indicating possible hyperbole; Old Testament echoes, etc.) It's really a masterful example of communication, but entertainment?
                  "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    Entertainment? Jesus often found creative ways to get His message across -- If the preacher believes the Gospel is important, he doesn't just want to stand there and babble -- he wants to be an effective communicator.

                    "Entertainment"? While there's obviously a lot of that going on these days, I'm a little disappointed you'd manage to get that from what I was saying.
                    When you say "capture the imagination of the congregants" - that implies at least some element of entertainment. I'm just not sure how else to interpret that.
                    It's about half of the service in my experience
                    So, easily the largest chunk, yes?
                    I'm becoming more convinced than ever that you and I just seem to be incapable of communication.
                    Please don't reach this conclusion every time we have a disagreement. I will never, EVER deliberately put you down. I respect you, and hope I can be honestly forthright with you without it being taken the wrong way.
                    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                    sigpic
                    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                      When you say "capture the imagination of the congregants" - that implies at least some element of entertainment.
                      That may be what you infer, but it is certainly not what I imply.
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        That may be what you infer, but it is certainly not what I imply.
                        Thank you for the clarification. Non-denominational churches, in my experience, certainly tend toward entertainment (bands leading worship, powerpoints, etc.), which seemed odd coming from you.
                        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                        sigpic
                        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                          Thank you for the clarification. Non-denominational churches, in my experience, certainly tend toward entertainment (bands leading worship, powerpoints, etc.), which seemed odd coming from you.
                          We have no bands or "worship music" (in the popular sense) and the only reason I use a powerpoint is because I have a number of older people in the congregation, and my main sermon points, as well as accompanying scripture, appear on the screen for them to follow along.

                          When I said "capture their imagination", I had in mind the teaching methods of Jesus, where He used current events, analogies, stories, parables, questions, repetition, visual illustrations, object lessons.... I simply meant as opposed to standing up there reading the sermon, which I've seen done, or using a wide range of scriptures out of context that might remotely support a point.
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Perhaps engaging would be a better term than entertaining.

                            Although there is some humor and such in that. The idea of taking the plank out of your own eye would have been a joke in Jesus's day.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              It does make for a humorous picture!
                              If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                              Comment

                              Related Threads

                              Collapse

                              Topics Statistics Last Post
                              Started by Apologiaphoenix, 03-15-2024, 10:19 PM
                              14 responses
                              74 views
                              1 like
                              Last Post rogue06
                              by rogue06
                               
                              Started by Apologiaphoenix, 03-13-2024, 10:13 PM
                              6 responses
                              60 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Apologiaphoenix  
                              Started by Apologiaphoenix, 03-12-2024, 09:36 PM
                              1 response
                              23 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post rogue06
                              by rogue06
                               
                              Started by Apologiaphoenix, 03-11-2024, 10:19 PM
                              0 responses
                              22 views
                              2 likes
                              Last Post Apologiaphoenix  
                              Started by Apologiaphoenix, 03-08-2024, 11:59 AM
                              3 responses
                              44 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post whag
                              by whag
                               
                              Working...
                              X