Trump's National Address

[Bill the Cat]

To be fair, those were some of the ugliest shoes to ever grace the silver screen.

l0uMf4s.gif

[Charles]

I believe it because that is what the evidence tells me. Your inability to provide even ONE link to a cogent speech contributes to that evidence. You can claim, "I'm not interested," if you wish - but it is odd that you were interested up until I posed the challenge. And if Trump is so good - it should be an easy challenge to respond to indeed. There are MANY examples of Trump's speeches online. Just pick the one you fond to be most cogent.

Or not. Up to you. But if you can't, I'll stick with what the evidence of my ears has shown me: Trump is a verbal nightmare.

I would be happy to see what MM would point to. A good Trump speech is seemingly hard to find even for Mountain Man.

[carpedm9587]

And yet the same people have watched him and have come to different conclusions.

And I think they are wrong. So the problem is...?

Because I hold a position that is held by another group does not make it "uninformed." I also believe unions need to be better controlled and mandatory membership needs to be eliminated; a position largely held by people on the right. Does that make me automatically "biased" by the positions on the right? Bias is rooted in why someone has a position. If I have my position BECAUSE it is left-leaning, then it is biased. If I have my position because I have looked at the issues and the man and arrived at that conclusion it is not.

You seem totally unaware of your own biasness.

Your opinion is noted. You're wrong - but I'm fairly sure you won't believe that.

You are welcome to point out which items on my list are inaccurate. As far as I can tell - each of them deals with historical matters of fact that Trump has misrepresented, usually by providing false information. If that were done once - it could be chalked up to being a mistake. That it is repeated multiple times AFTER it has been shown to be false makes it an intentional lie.

I don't believe I have ever said or implied that Trump won because half the country is racially bigoted - so you appear to be attributing thing to me I have not said. That seems to happen around here a great deal. However, if you disagree - simply provide a link to the post where I said anything like that.

[Sparko]

https://www.thewrap.com/trump-villai...ll-save-world/

Sound familiar?

Wow so now you think 60 year-old fictional TV shows are exposing Trump's secret plan to you?

Do you hear voices too?

[lilpixieofterror]

And I think they are wrong. So the problem is...

Because I hold a position that is held by another group does not make it "uninformed." I also believe unions need to be better controlled and mandatory membership needs to be eliminated; a position largely held by people on the right. Does that make me automatically "biased" by the positions on the right? Bias is rooted in why someone has a position. If I have my position BECAUSE it is left-leaning, then it is biased. If I have my position because I have looked at the issues and the man and arrived at that conclusion it is not.

Your opinion is noted. You're wrong - but I'm fairly sure you won't believe that.

And as you said, all I have to do is observe and while you make claims of being a centralist, most of the positions you argue in favor of are left leaning positions.

You are welcome to point out which items on my list are inaccurate. As far as I can tell - each of them deals with historical matters of fact that Trump has misrepresented, usually by providing false information. If that were done once - it could be chalked up to being a mistake. That it is repeated multiple times AFTER it has been shown to be false makes it an intentional lie.

I don't believe I have ever said or implied that Trump won because half the country is racially bigoted - so you appear to be attributing thing to me I have not said. That seems to happen around here a great deal. However, if you disagree - simply provide a link to the post where I said anything like that.

Your own words:

My issue was not with Trump - it was with Trump represented. The population of the United States put a demonstrable liar, bully, and in almost every measurable way, immoral man in the highest office in the land. They did so because he was a popular reality TV star, and he was spewing hate that they loved and glommed onto. My issue was not with Trump per se - it was with what it says about the people in this country that they would, in such numbers, support such a human being.

[Cow Poke]

Wow so now you think 60 year-old fictional TV shows are exposing Trump's secret plan to you?

Do you hear voices too?

He's precious.

[Sparko]

He's precious.

There is this one website where this lady, Nancy Lieder thinks some Starburst candy told her about the Zeta Reticulans, aliens that are supposed to be trying to crash planet X into the earth.

[carpedm9587]

About what, specifically?

Most of my social positions lean left - which I've said many times. Fiscally I lean right. They lean left (or right) for reasons I can outline and quantify. The term "bias" is defined to mean "prejudice in favor of or against one thing, person, or group compared with another, usually in a way considered to be unfair." To make the case that I am "biased" you would have to show that the positions I hold are unreasonable or unfair. Otherwise... :shrug"

And as you said, all I have to do is observe and while you make claims of being a centralist, most of the positions you argue in favor of are left leaning positions.

Please find any place where I have claimed to be a "centrist." While it has been said multiple times about me, it is not a claim I have ever made. I have claimed to be a moderate, which means that most of my views tend to be more centrist than they are extreme. But each view, on each topic, leans left or right to some degree.

I don't believe I have said anything about "please think of the children" - so I have no response.

Your own words:

So exactly where, in what you just posted, did I accused anyone of being a racist or bigot?

[lilpixieofterror]

About what, specifically?

Anything. You seem to be totally convinced that reading Trump in the worst possible light is the best way to read a word he says.

Most of my social positions lean left - which I've said many times. Fiscally I lean right. They lean left (or right) for reasons I can outline and quantify. The term "bias" is defined to mean "prejudice in favor of or against one thing, person, or group compared with another, usually in a way considered to be unfair." To make the case that I am "biased" you would have to show that the positions I hold are unreasonable or unfair. Otherwise... :shrug"

Sorry, but concepts of economic jystice are classic left positions or did you not really mean what you said to seer?

Please find any place where I have claimed to be a "centrist." While it has been said multiple times about me, it is not a claim I have ever made. I have claimed to be a moderate, which means that most of my views tend to be more centrist than they are extreme. But each view, on each topic, leans left or right to some degree.

have

I don't believe I have said anything about "please think of the children" - so I have no response.

So exactly where, in what you just posted, did I accused anyone of being a racist or bigot?

[carpedm9587]

Anything. You seem to be totally convinced that reading Trump in the worst possible light is the best way to read a word he says.

He is what he is. I didn't make him that way.

Sorry, but concepts of economic jystice are classic left positions or did you not really mean what you said to seer?

Of course I meant it. I didn't say ALL my fiscal positions were right - nor are all of my social positions left. I said I lean right fiscally, and strongly left socially. And you still have not demonstrated bias - other than to accuse me of it because I have views that lean to one political side or the other. That is not bias. So you'll have to do better. Or you can continue to think of me as biased. It doesn't make much difference to me.

have

Yep - but I am wondering if you actually do. So take a line, mark the left with an L, the right with an R, and the center with a C. When someone says they are a moderate, what they are saying is that their views generally tend closer to the center than to either extreme. That does not mean all of my views are dead center, or even some of my views are dead center. If you create a scatter plot of my views, some will be to the left, and some more strongly to the left. Others will be to the right, and a few somewhat strongly to the right. If you average them out - I'd be somewhat left of center. But my views run across the spectrum. I can't think of a single view where I am dead center in my beliefs.

You seem to be having a hard time with this concept. It's really quite simple - and not dizzying at all. Hopefully that explanation will help you grasp it.

Do you like not read what you say at all?

Usually. My big problem is I tend to proof AFTER I've posted, and then go back and edit. It's a bad habit.

Yes - I did. Both statement are accurate and not a matter of opinion.

You also have no idea the entire debate, which was sparked by pictures of children in cages that was said to have happened under Trump, but turned out to be a lie because those pictures were taken under the Obama administration?

I am aware that pictures were erroneously posted and attributed to Trump when they were pictures taken under the Obama administration. I am also aware that they were not pictures taken of children intentionally separated from their parents, but rather were pictures taken of children at a time when a flood of children crossed the border and overwhelmed the capabilities of the border patrol to house them. The situation was temporary and resolved as quickly as possible, as best I can tell from my research.

So - here are the facts. The pictures originated with a tweet (I believe he actually shared someone else's tweet) by Jon Favreau, a former speech writer for Obama. He posted the tweet, within minutes realized he had failed to check the dates and that they were incorrect, and deleted the tweet, posting an apology for the error. Unfortunately, he had about a million followers at the time, and the tweet went viral quickly. His original tweet was grabbed by Twitchy and the became the focus of a Fox News article. The article, of course, reported on the original tweet, but not on Favreau's retraction and apology. There are several sources that describe the sequence. One of them is here.

I've already responded to this in previous posts. I'll let those responses stand. Repeating myself is getting a bit tedious.

I look forward to your next dodge of trying to get out from your own words.

[lilpixieofterror]

He is what he is. I didn't make him that way.

Of course I meant it. I didn't say ALL my fiscal positions were right - nor are all of my social positions left. I said I lean right fiscally, and strongly left socially. And you still have not demonstrated bias - other than to accuse me of it because I have views that lean to one political side or the other. That is not bias. So you'll have to do better. Or you can continue to think of me as biased. It doesn't make much difference to me.

Yep - but I am wondering if you actually do. So take a line, mark the left with an L, the right with an R, and the center with a C. When someone says they are a moderate, what they are saying is that their views generally tend closer to the center than to either extreme. That does not mean all of my views are dead center, or even some of my views are dead center. If you create a scatter plot of my views, some will be to the left, and some more strongly to the left. Others will be to the right, and a few somewhat strongly to the right. If you average them out - I'd be somewhat left of center. But my views run across the spectrum. I can't think of a single view where I am dead center in my beliefs.

You seem to be having a hard time with this concept. It's really quite simple - and not dizzying at all. Hopefully that explanation will help you grasp it.

I understand the concept just fine. You just try to pretend you are close to center when your positions are mainly more left than center.

Usually. My big problem is I tend to proof AFTER I've posted, and then go back and edit. It's a bad habit.

Yes - I did. Both statement are accurate and not a matter of opinion.

I am aware that pictures were erroneously posted and attributed to Trump when they were pictures taken under the Obama administration. I am also aware that they were not pictures taken of children intentionally separated from their parents, but rather were pictures taken of children at a time when a flood of children crossed the border and overwhelmed the capabilities of the border patrol to house them. The situation was temporary and resolved as quickly as possible, as best I can tell from my research.

So - here are the facts. The pictures originated with a tweet (I believe he actually shared someone else's tweet) by Jon Favreau, a former speech writer for Obama. He posted the tweet, within minutes realized he had failed to check the dates and that they were incorrect, and deleted the tweet, posting an apology for the error. Unfortunately, he had about a million followers at the time, and the tweet went viral quickly. His original tweet was grabbed by Twitchy and the became the focus of a Fox News article. The article, of course, reported on the original tweet, but not on Favreau's retraction and apology. There are several sources that describe the sequence. One of them is here.

I've already responded to this in previous posts. I'll let those responses stand. Repeating myself is getting a bit tedious.

[carpedm9587]

Then we disagree. Trump is a pretty vile human being. As with most people, he is not completely devoid of saving graces and strengths. But overall, he leans to the negative very, very strongly, IMO.

Yes - some of my fiscal views lean left - and some of my social views lean right. At no point have I ever claimed otherwise. If, in your mind, any presence of a left-leaning fiscal view makes me "left," so be it. As I said, it doesn't matter all that much how you decide to assess me.

Your opinion is duly noted.

I don't recall ever saying that Trump's opponents were the shining example of honesty. Everyone lies - sooner or later. Few people defend it as a good thing.

If it had been temporary - yes. I try to align my views with the data I uncover. Feel free to point to any place where you believe I have not done so and I will look at it.

I do not know anyone who opposes Trump (or anyone aligned with him) who lies as much as Mr. Trump does - or defends it. Perhaps Ms. Conway and Ms. Huckabee-Sanders come close. Most people acknowledge a misstatement when they are caught out - or at least stop repeating it.

Feel free to point to any post where I have "excused" anything bad that happened under Obama.

Under Obama - when the situation was revealed, Obama took immediate steps to reverse things - and it was never a matter of policy. And he took responsibility in a Truman-like "the buck stops here" manner. Trump explicitly put the policy in place, his administration publicly announced it was doing so intentionally as a deterrent and defended the practice, and gave ground on it only after the tide of public opinion turned massively against him. To this day (months later), there are hundreds of children still separated from parents as a direct result of this policy. You're comparing apples and oranges. The situation under Obama was bad, but not policy. The situation under Trump was orders of magnitude larger - and was explicit, defended, policy.

And that changes the fact that millions of people spread this lie, it was repeated often, and that the Obama administration was separating parents from their children and locking them up into cages?h?

Same response.

You interpretation of my post is not correct.

[lilpixieofterror]

Then we disagree. Trump is a pretty vile human being. As with most people, he is not completely devoid of saving graces and strengths. But overall, he leans to the negative very, very strongly, IMO.

Yes - some of my fiscal views lean left - and some of my social views lean right. At no point have I ever claimed otherwise. If, in your mind, any presence of a left-leaning fiscal view makes me "left," so be it. As I said, it doesn't matter all that much how you decide to assess me.

Your opinion is duly noted.

And one pretty much understood by almost all, but yourself.

I don't recall ever saying that Trump's opponents were the shining example of honesty. Everyone lies - sooner or later. Few people defend it as a good thing.

If it had been temporary - yes. I try to align my views with the data I uncover. Feel free to point to any place where you believe I have not done so and I will look at it.

So if I locked my kids into a cage, if the misbehaved and gave the excuse that it was temporary, would CPS say okay and move on or would I have my kids taken away?

I do not know anyone who opposes Trump (or anyone aligned with him) who lies as much as Mr. Trump does - or defends it. Perhaps Ms. Conway and Ms. Huckabee-Sanders come close. Most people acknowledge a misstatement when they are caught out - or at least stop repeating it.

Feel free to point to any post where I have "excused" anything bad that happened under Obama.

How about your excuse for locking kids in cages as being temporary? Can I lock my kids into a cage and not have them taken by COS? Yes or no?

Under Obama - when the situation was revealed, Obama took immediate steps to reverse things - and it was never a matter of policy. And he took responsibility in a Truman-like "the buck stops here" manner. Trump explicitly put the policy in place, his administration publicly announced it was doing so intentionally as a deterrent and defended the practice, and gave ground on it only after the tide of public opinion turned massively against him. To this day (months later), there are hundreds of children still separated from parents as a direct result of this policy. You're comparing apples and oranges. The situation under Obama was bad, but not policy. The situation under Trump was orders of magnitude larger - and was explicit, defended, policy.

Same response.

Another famous Carp hand wave, to excuse away things he says.

You interpretation of my post is not correct.

You mean it was wrong to read you in the worst possible light and put the worst possible spin on your words? Why?

[carpedm9587]

Most of the above is simply rehash of things I have already responded to - so I'll let me previous responses stand. Further repetition is pointless. For the last statement, you seem to be equating "explanation" with "excuse." Knowing how something happened and why it happened is not equivalent to "excusing it." The situation under Obama should never have happened - and I have never said otherwise. What caused it (local decisions versus presidential policy), how it was responded to (immediately upon its discovery versus only after many days of mounting public pressure), and accountability (Obama taking responsibility, versus Trump blaming everyone else) are the differences. The fact of children in cages is deplorable in either situation.

Hopefully that will clarify things for you.

ETA: Reflecting on this a bit, I'm not sure that I place fault with the Border Patrol for how the children were housed in 2014. Putting myself in their place, I have no idea what I would do with an overwhelming flood of children that exhausted my resources to house them. I certainly wouldn't want them to be outside unaccompanied. I would hope that the children were so-housed simply because the Border Patrol agents had no other alternative. But the reality is I don't know what their specific situation was, and whether or not they exhausted all possible avenues before making that choice. If they did, they have my understanding for doing the best they could in a bad situation. If they didn't, then the choice they made was reprehensible.

https://www.businessinsider.com/migr...plained-2018-5
https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/l...n/65-600537320

Finding resources is a bit difficult, because most searches bring up articles/discussion about the Trump family separation policy.

BTW - you should really lay off the popcorn. It'll make you fat.

Another famous Carp hand wave, to excuse away things he says.

You mean it was wrong to read you in the worst possible light and put the worst possible spin on your words? Why?

No - I mean you interpreted my words incorrectly. "Wrong," the way you used it, implies a value judgement. I have no idea what your motivations might be or if you had any. I'm simply telling you that your interpretation of my post is not correct. You can do with that what you wish.

[rogue06]

And yet you get annoyed when people read you in a worse way than you intend, but you refuse to extend the slightest grace to Trump.

It's just part of the hypocritical double standard that we've come to expect from the unhinged left.