Trump's National Address

[Mountain Man]

Who came up with the ideas about "alternative facts" and "truth isn't truth"?

"Alternative facts" simply refers to those facts which the liberal media refuses to publish because they contradict the narrative.

[rogue06]

"Alternative facts" simply refers to those facts which the liberal media refuses to publish because they contradict the narrative.

Yup. Both sides can have facts that support their case. The "alternate facts" are the ones the MSM refuses to cover.

[carpedm9587]

Calling opinions "lies" has been how the left has kept up their spittle flecked "Trump Lied!!!1!!" hysteria.

Horse hockey. Trump's continuous stream of lies is pretty much self evident. You cannot make a factually incorrect statement - be called on it - and then continue to repeat it without it being a lie. It's not an "opinion" that the wall will stop the inflow of drugs - it is a FACT that the majority of drugs entering the U.S. come in through legal ports of entry. It is not an opinion that terrorists are flooding across our southern border - it is a FACT that they are not. It is not an opinion that "Mexico is paying for the wall." It is a FACT that there is no viable economic model in which this is even borderline feasible, and it's not how government budgeting works. It's not an opinion that the family separation policy was "just like the Obama administration," it's a fact that Obama never had such a policy - and neither did any president before him within my lifetime. Some family separations did occur - but it was never policy.

The list goes on and on and on. Ignoring facts and creating "alternative facts" is nothing short of lying. It's not a simple "difference of opinion."

[Cow Poke]

At least they were coherent. But I'm very curious. The list of misinformation and lies from Trump was pretty clear. What did you hear from Pelosi and Schumer that you thought was misinformation or an outright lie?

Extreme hypocrisy.

They are fighting the wall they were previously for (54 Senate Democrats voted in 2013 for $46 billion for border security, including 700 miles of border fencing), driven solely by their hatred of Trump, and their own political futures in 2020.

[Sparko]

Nope. Whataboutism is trying to justify something bad by pointing to others doing somehing equally as bad or worse. Rogue is an expert on that.


The point in my post was different. There is no hysteria and there is no way to justify the claim that "Calling opinions "lies" has been how the left has kept up their spittle flecked "Trump Lied!!!1!!" hysteria." There is so much more to it than that. Statements like "alternative facts" and "truth isn't truth" speak their own language. You can easily see that Trump is a liar without having to call opinions lies.

and yet when you look at the list of "lies" of Trump, it is mostly differences of opinion or splitting hairs over a word like "thousands" or some other adjective Trump used.

In fact you are doing that very thing by complaining about Rogue's use of a vernacular phrase and his opinion. I am shocked you didn't latch on to "spittle flecked" and demand proof that democrats were actually flecked with spittle. But maybe you were saving that one for later on in your troll?

[carpedm9587]

Extreme hypocrisy.

They are fighting the wall they were previously for (54 Senate Democrats voted in 2013 for $46 billion for border security, including 700 miles of border fencing), driven solely by their hatred of Trump, and their own political futures in 2020.

CP - they voted for funding for almost 600 miles of fencing to be placed at strategic locations where it has made a difference. They are now taking the position that this job has been done and Trump is throwing money at his additional 700-900 miles of funding with no justification. That is not hypocrisy - it's "been there - done that - what's next."

I don't doubt that part of this is political. Most of us Americans want Trump gone. But part of it is also simply practical - even those along the border have repeatedly noted that fencing/barriers/walls are need strategically - not another indiscriminate 700-900 miles of fencing.

[Sparko]

CP - they voted for funding for almost 600 miles of fencing to be placed at strategic locations where it has made a difference. They are now taking the position that this job has been done and Trump is throwing money at his additional 700-900 miles of funding with no justification. That is not hypocrisy - it's "been there - done that - what's next."

I don't doubt that part of this is political. Most of us Americans want Trump gone. But part of it is also simply practical - even those along the border have repeatedly noted that fencing/barriers/walls are need strategically - not another indiscriminate 700-900 miles of fencing.

It was about 700 miles! Therefore under the same rules as used to call Trump a liar when he gets something wrong, I should call you a liar, right?

[carpedm9587]

It was about 700 miles! Therefore under the same rules as used to call Trump a liar when he gets something wrong, I should call you a liar, right?

No - you can simply call me mistaken. You see - the difference between Trump and me is that I will check when someone says "you got that wrong." If the correction is accurate (and yours is) I will say, "sorry - I got that number wrong" (which I did) and then use the correct number from that point on. That's what most people do. Trump does not - he simply repeats the wrong information over and over and over again. His philosophy (see the "Art of the Deal") is that truth is what you say it is - and if you repeat a thing often enough, it becomes "the truth." It is also his philosophy that a lie is justified if it achieves a negotiation end that you want.

I find both approaches immoral and reprehensible.

[Sparko]

No - you can simply call me mistaken. You see - the difference between Trump and me is that I will check when someone says "you got that wrong." If the correction is accurate (and yours is) I will say, "sorry - I got that number wrong" (which I did) and then use the correct number from that point on. That's what most people do. Trump does not - he simply repeats the wrong information over and over and over again. His philosophy (see the "Art of the Deal") is that truth is what you say it is - and if you repeat a thing often enough, it becomes "the truth." It is also his philosophy that a lie is justified if it achieves a negotiation end that you want.

I find both approaches immoral and reprehensible.

Dang that sounds like Tassman!

OK so if you say 600 again, THEN I can call you a liar. Got it.

[rogue06]

Horse hockey. Trump's continuous stream of lies is pretty much self evident. You cannot make a factually incorrect statement - be called on it - and then continue to repeat it without it being a lie. It's not an "opinion" that the wall will stop the inflow of drugs - it is a FACT that the majority of drugs entering the U.S. come in through legal ports of entry. It is not an opinion that terrorists are flooding across our southern border - it is a FACT that they are not. It is not an opinion that "Mexico is paying for the wall." It is a FACT that there is no viable economic model in which this is even borderline feasible, and it's not how government budgeting works. It's not an opinion that the family separation policy was "just like the Obama administration," it's a fact that Obama never had such a policy - and neither did any president before him within my lifetime. Some family separations did occur - but it was never policy.

The list goes on and on and on. Ignoring facts and creating "alternative facts" is nothing short of lying. It's not a simple "difference of opinion."

There is no doubt that Trump stretches the truth beyond the breaking point. Pretty much like every politician of every party before him. But the foaming at the mouth sufferers of TDS love to pad the list with a massive number of examples of what a rational person can quickly deduce are statements of opinion that those who fabricate these lists simply disagree with. I've noted repeatedly that the sort of lists of lies you see circulating have been cobbled together about every president and tend to be loaded with things that by any stretch of the imagination aren't lies but rather statements of opinion and mistakes ("Obama LIED when he said there were 57 states!" is one I remember seeing more than once). The difference was that previously these sort of things were circulated by fringe groups and only appeared upon occasion in an email or on a late night radio talk show but now are eagerly disseminated by supposedly respectable news outlets.

One other thing to note. Recently I heard a Never Trumper conservative reluctantly concede that Trump behaves a lot like a stereotypical New Yorker -- especially those from Brooklyn and Queens -- where everything is the biggest, the best, the greatest... (until now I only thought Texans spoke that way about what they do ). But the TDS afflicted leap on those sort of statements as "LIES!" (it wasn't the biggest like Trump claimed but only the third biggest so he is a unforgivable low down liar!).

Recently some of Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's supporters defended her often hilarious flubs declaring that stodgy Washingtonians just didn't understand how New Yorkers tend to say things. They, of course, would never think for a moment of giving Trump the same benefit of the doubt. Too much unreasoning hatred there. After all, he committed the unpardonable sin of defeating the candidate that our betters had in their infinite wisdom selected for us to rule... er, govern the country -- even rigging primaries (so that she'd get the most delegates regardless of who the commoners voted for) and debates (giving her the questions in advance so she could concoct an answer she thought people would buy).

[carpedm9587]

There is no doubt that Trump stretches the truth beyond the breaking point. Pretty much like every politician of every party before him. But the foaming at the mouth sufferers of TDS love to pad the list with a massive number of examples of what a rational person can quickly deduce are statements of opinion that those who fabricate these lists simply disagree with. I've noted repeatedly that the sort of lists of lies you see circulating have been cobbled together about every president and tend to be loaded with things that by any stretch of the imagination aren't lies but rather statements of opinion and mistakes ("Obama LIED when he said there were 57 states!" is one I remember seeing more than once). The difference was that previously these sort of things were circulated by fringe groups and only appeared upon occasion in an email or on a late night radio talk show but now are eagerly disseminated by supposedly respectable news outlets.

One other thing to note. Recently I heard a Never Trumper conservative reluctantly concede that Trump behaves a lot like a stereotypical New Yorker -- especially those from Brooklyn and Queens -- where everything is the biggest, the best, the greatest... (until now I only thought Texans spoke that way about what they do ). But the TDS afflicted leap on those sort of statements as "LIES!" (it wasn't the biggest like Trump claimed but only the third biggest so he is a unforgivable low down liar!).

Recently some of Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's supporters defended her often hilarious flubs declaring that stodgy Washingtonians just didn't understand how New Yorkers tend to say things. They, of course, would never think for a moment of giving Trump the same benefit of the doubt. Too much unreasoning hatred there. After all, he committed the unpardonable sin of defeating the candidate that our betters had in their infinite wisdom selected for us to rule... er, govern the country -- even rigging primaries (so that she'd get the most delegates regardless of who the commoners voted for) and debates (giving her the questions in advance so she could concoct an answer she thought people would buy).

So I emphasized the untrue part of your post. Trump is not like every other politician before him. Yes - they all lie on occasion - and they all spin and stretch the truth. But they generally stop repeating a lie wen they are shown that it is a lie. Not always, mind you, but generally. (and yes - I know about the "you can keep your plan/doctor lie from Obama). Trump never reverses himself or corrects himself - he considers it a sign of weakness. He almost never apologizes (same reason). And he repeats the same discredited statements over and over and over again.

As for "he's a New Yorker" - bull crap. SOME New Yorker's talk that way - but it is by no means a regional predilection. Trump's hyperbole is annoying - but it is not what I am referring to when I say he lies. His lies are the factually untrue things he says - and then repeats. Washington Post has used the "Pinocchio" model for lies uttered by politicians. Usually it is 1 - 4 Pinocchios depending on the severity of the lie. They had to introduce the "Bottomless Pinocchio" specifically for Trump.

Dismissing him as "just another politician" ignores his utter amorality.

[carpedm9587]

Dang that sounds like Tassman!

OK so if you say 600 again, THEN I can call you a liar. Got it.

Yes- if I continue to insist it was 600 miles - you would justifiably call me a liar. You gave me the source to show my number was incorrect. If I ignore it and continue to repeat "my reality" - I would be intentionally lying to you.

[Cow Poke]

Yes- if I continue to insist it was 600 miles - you would justifiably call me a liar. You gave me the source to show my number was incorrect. If I ignore it and continue to repeat "my reality" - I would be intentionally lying to you.

Here's a great article for you to hand wave away....


Media’s Angry Response To President Trump’s Oval Office Speech Comes Up Short

...But when it came time to back up this talking point about factual inaccuracies, the media whiffed. Most of the alleged “fact” “checks” were instead critiques of opinions. Many critiqued things not included in Trump’s speech. And sometimes the “fact” “checks” dinged Trump for saying completely true things. Take the Washington Post, for instance:...

[rogue06]

So I emphasized the untrue part of your post. Trump is not like every other politician before him. Yes - they all lie on occasion - and they all spin and stretch the truth. But they generally stop repeating a lie wen they are shown that it is a lie. Not always, mind you, but generally. (and yes - I know about the "you can keep your plan/doctor lie from Obama). Trump never reverses himself or corrects himself - he considers it a sign of weakness. He almost never apologizes (same reason). And he repeats the same discredited statements over and over and over again.

As for "he's a New Yorker" - bull crap. SOME New Yorker's talk that way - but it is by no means a regional predilection. Trump's hyperbole is annoying - but it is not what I am referring to when I say he lies. His lies are the factually untrue things he says - and then repeats. Washington Post has used the "Pinocchio" model for lies uttered by politicians. Usually it is 1 - 4 Pinocchios depending on the severity of the lie. They had to introduce the "Bottomless Pinocchio" specifically for Trump.

Dismissing him as "just another politician" ignores his utter amorality.

Trump is only deemed worse because you include every misstatement, every expression of opinion that you disagree with as a lie. Again, I've seen lists like the one the TDS afflicted wave about since the time of Johnson and Nixon.

[carpedm9587]

Here's a great article for you to hand wave away....


Media’s Angry Response To President Trump’s Oval Office Speech Comes Up Short

...But when it came time to back up this talking point about factual inaccuracies, the media whiffed. Most of the alleged “fact” “checks” were instead critiques of opinions. Many critiqued things not included in Trump’s speech. And sometimes the “fact” “checks” dinged Trump for saying completely true things. Take the Washington Post, for instance:...

I've read it - but since any response is apparently already deemed "handwaving," there doesn't seem to be much point.