'Traditional Masculinity' Is Harmful...

[Tassman]

Oh PLEASE give me your definition of "redneck". I can't wait to hear the bigotry ooze from that pie hole of yours...

Wiki: "Redneck is a derogatory term chiefly but not exclusively applied to white Americans perceived to be crass and unsophisticated, closely associated with rural whites of the Southern United States. Its usage is similar in meaning to cracker, hillbilly, and white trash"

[JimL]

The opinion of nancy boys and leftist women...



Let's check off the boxes.

1. I seldom cry or show emotion or weakness.

2. I had high risk and adventurous behavior when young.

3. I think homosexuality is immoral (homophobic?).

4. I don't use violence unless in self-defense. But I will use it.

5. I think men need to protect women.

So I guess I am a psychological mess...

I think you're making up your own definition of masculine. Number 1) isn't masculine, it's stupid. 2) Women engage in high risk adventurous behavior as well as men, nothing masculine about that. 3) That you are a homophobe isn't masculine, it's simply bigoted which is a characteristic seen in both men and women, 4) anyone would use violence in self defense, 5) Protect women from what?

[seer]

I think you're making up your own definition of masculine. Number 1) isn't masculine, it's stupid. 2) Women engage in high risk adventurous behavior as well as men, nothing masculine about that. 3) That you are a homophobe isn't masculine, it's simply bigoted which is a characteristic seen in both men and women, 4) anyone would use violence in self defense, 5) Protect women from what?

Jim, I made nothing up, I was going by the APA definitions in the study in the OP.

[Starlight]

Jim, I made nothing up, I was going by the APA definitions in the study in the OP.

I can't see anything in the APA report that matches to what you listed directly. Can you clarify as to how you're not making this up?

[seer]

I can't see anything in the APA report that matches to what you listed directly. Can you clarify as to how you're not making this up?

To quote the link traditional masculinity includes:

anti-femininity, achievement, eschewal of the appearance of weakness, and adventure, risk, and violence, aggression, homophobia...


I said,

1. I seldom cry or show emotion or weakness.

2. I had high risk and adventurous behavior when young.

3. I think homosexuality is immoral (homophobic?).

4. I don't use violence unless in self-defense. But I will use it.

5. I think men need to protect women.

the only one that possibly doesn't fit is five...

[Bill the Cat]

Wiki: "Redneck is a derogatory term chiefly but not exclusively applied to white Americans perceived to be crass and unsophisticated, closely associated with rural whites of the Southern United States. Its usage is similar in meaning to cracker, hillbilly, and white trash"

I am a white American. That's it. Your using that admittedly derogatory term makes you a big fat hypocrite and a bigot.

[One Bad Pig]

I am a white American. That's it. Your using that admittedly derogatory term makes you a big fat hypocrite and a bigot.

I served with some rednecks in the military. Having met you in person, I can't say I'd even consider putting you in that category.

[Tassman]

I am a white American. That's it.

By referring to enlightened individuals who are not sexist, racist or homophobic as “wimps” reveals exactly what you are.

Your using that admittedly derogatory term makes you a big fat hypocrite and a bigot.

"Fat"!

[Christianbookworm]

Yeah... if there were any people that fit that stereotype, they would not be on tweb. Because theology is for eggheads!

[NorrinRadd]

Leave Tass alone!

Whew! I thought it was directed at ME.

[seer]

Whew! I thought it was directed at ME.

Well we could include you if you feel left out!

[Chaotic Void]

Speaking as someone who's been accused of being, "Gay," and, "Effeminate," by various folks because I didn't meet their arbitrary standards of what constitutes, "Straight and Masculine," even though I have zero sexual interest in dudes and I'm FAR from effeminate, I'm not opposed to better defining what masculinity is... Of course, it seems like the APA has gone Potato on the subject (no surprise, given what I've heard about how politically charged the medical professions are, especially Mental Health).

[Starlight]

Speaking as someone who's been accused of being, "Gay," and, "Effeminate," by various folks because I didn't meet their arbitrary standards of what constitutes, "Straight and Masculine," even though I have zero sexual interest in dudes and I'm FAR from effeminate, I'm not opposed to better defining what masculinity is...

Speaking from the opposite perspective - as someone who passes social masculinity tests with flying colors and has never been called effeminate - I simply see no value whatsoever in the ideas of masculinity.

I find the people who think ideas of masculinity are useful to be amusing. To me it's like someone saying "I think an important measure of social judgement of others should be the height they could high jump at age 4". I have a responding thought of "well, your metric is obviously ludicrous, but the very fact your promoting it is a fascinating insight into your psychology".

Usually it seems to turn out that strong supporters of current social ideas of masculinity are simply historically and culturally ignorant, and have no clue whatsoever that their ideas are just modern and arbitrary, and instead view themselves as some sort of 'cultural conservative' who is preserving some sort of 'traditional' ideas that they think must have some sort of historical legitimacy and must be grounded in biology. As I've noted before, the basic antidote to conservatism is studying Cultural Anthropology, and realizing how utterly arbitrary and recent the "traditional" ideas the particular culture you were born in has that you are trying to "conserve".

Of course, it seems like the APA has gone Potato on the subject

Given you yourself above noted that you're not a big fan of the current common Western cultural definition of masculinity, it seems to me you should support the APA observing exactly your point.

[MaxVel]

As I've noted before, the basic antidote to conservatism is studying Cultural Anthropology, and realizing how utterly arbitrary and recent the "traditional" ideas the particular culture you were born in has that you are trying to "conserve".

Way to overstate your case. You'd be somewhat credible if you didn't resort to this sort of thing.

[Chaotic Void]

Speaking from the opposite perspective - as someone who passes social masculinity tests with flying colors and has never been called effeminate - I simply see no value whatsoever in the ideas of masculinity.

I find the people who think ideas of masculinity are useful to be amusing. To me it's like someone saying "I think an important measure of social judgement of others should be the height they could high jump at age 4". I have a responding thought of "well, your metric is obviously ludicrous, but the very fact your promoting it is a fascinating insight into your psychology".

Usually it seems to turn out that strong supporters of current social ideas of masculinity are simply historically and culturally ignorant, and have no clue whatsoever that their ideas are just modern and arbitrary, and instead view themselves as some sort of 'cultural conservative' who is preserving some sort of 'traditional' ideas that they think must have some sort of historical legitimacy and must be grounded in biology. As I've noted before, the basic antidote to conservatism is studying Cultural Anthropology, and realizing how utterly arbitrary and recent the "traditional" ideas the particular culture you were born in has that you are trying to "conserve".

Here's the rub, however... I have a problem with flushing masculinity down the toilet entirely. The whole point of deconstructing masculinity (or anything else, really) is to find out where things have been going wrong so you can improve it. These changes need to come about because there's something about the subject that needs to be corrected, not because some elitists like to virtue signal and huff their own farts because it strokes their egos. Tl;dr? "The Solution to Bad Masculinity is not No Masculinity, but Better Masculinity."

Given you yourself above noted that you're not a big fan of the current common Western cultural definition of masculinity, it seems to me you should support the APA observing exactly your point.

Yeah, having skimmed that 36-Page PDF linked in the news article, I'm kinda, "Meh," on their handling. Sure, they made some good points about keeping tabs on cultural norms and how they differ, and also about Men and Mental Health problems, but then they include SJW buzzwords that make me roll my eyes so hard that I have to pry open my skull just to realign them. Again, given the trend of laziness and politically-charged hullabaloo in the Mental Health profession, I take such things with a grain of salt.