Results 1 to 7 of 7

Thread: How does the book of 1 Enoch contribute to our understanding of the Millennium?

  1. #1
    tWebber eschaton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Durango, Co
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    105
    Amen (Given)
    4
    Amen (Received)
    6

    How does the book of 1 Enoch contribute to our understanding of the Millennium?

    There are several places in 1 Enoch that sound similar to Revelation 20. Here are a few passages.

    18:12. And beyond that abyss I saw a place which had no firmament of the heaven above, and no firmly founded earth beneath it: there was no water upon it, and no birds, but it was a waste and horrible place. 13. I saw there seven stars like great burning mountains, and to me, when I inquired regarding them, 14. The angel said: 'This place is the end of heaven and earth: this has become a prison for the stars and the host of heaven. 21:6. These are of the number of the stars of heaven, which have transgressed the commandment of the Lord, and are bound here till ten thousand years, the time entailed by their sins, are consummated.' 21:10 'This place is the prison of the angels, and here they will be imprisoned for ever.'
    It appears that 1 Enoch is alluded to in the NT.

    cf. Mat 25:41, 1 Pe 3:19-20, 2 Pet 2:4, Jud 1:6

    Enoch mentions the abyss and imprisoned angels that rebelled, similar to the way Satan is imprisoned in the bottomless pit (9:1,2,11 11:7 17:8 20:1,3). Seven stars and seven mountains are mentioned in Enoch (cf. Rev 1:16,20 2:1 3:1 8:8 17:9). Rather than 1000, 10000 years are mentioned. Should this imagery affect our understanding of the millennium, considering Enoch is mentioned in the NT? Should the seven mountains be considered seven Roman emperors (Rev 17:9)?

  2. #2
    tWebber Faber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Sagittarius Arm
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,059
    Amen (Given)
    244
    Amen (Received)
    498
    The fact that 1 Enoch is cited in the New Testament is not a stamp of approval on its Divine Inspiration.

    Consider this: Paul cites text from the Assumption of Moses; twice he quotes Epimenides' Ode to Zeus. His references to Jannes & Jambres (2 Timothy 3:8) is from an apocryphal book, according to Origen.

    Other books are cited in the Old Testament which no longer exist. Book of Jasher (or Upright; 2 Samuel 1:18); Book of the Wars of the Lord (Numbers 21:14-15), etc.

    Do I believe the archangel Michael disputed with Satan over the body of Moses? Do I believe that three hundred angels had sex with women and produced giant offspring thousands of feet tall? No. I think Jude and Paul were citing these stories in the same manner that preachers today cite Pilgrim's Progress or those multitude of glurge stories.

  3. #3
    Professor KingsGambit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Triangle
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    10,657
    Amen (Given)
    1766
    Amen (Received)
    4673
    Quote Originally Posted by Faber View Post
    The fact that 1 Enoch is cited in the New Testament is not a stamp of approval on its Divine Inspiration.

    Consider this: Paul cites text from the Assumption of Moses; twice he quotes Epimenides' Ode to Zeus. His references to Jannes & Jambres (2 Timothy 3:8) is from an apocryphal book, according to Origen.

    Other books are cited in the Old Testament which no longer exist. Book of Jasher (or Upright; 2 Samuel 1:18); Book of the Wars of the Lord (Numbers 21:14-15), etc.

    Do I believe the archangel Michael disputed with Satan over the body of Moses? Do I believe that three hundred angels had sex with women and produced giant offspring thousands of feet tall? No. I think Jude and Paul were citing these stories in the same manner that preachers today cite Pilgrim's Progress or those multitude of glurge stories.
    Right. I have seen the argument previously advanced on TWeb that this quotation proves that Enoch was the actual author of the book, but this is a totally untenable position; the book appeared three or four centuries before Christ.
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

  4. #4
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Inside the beltway
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    21,230
    Amen (Given)
    6265
    Amen (Received)
    11964
    Quote Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
    There are several places in 1 Enoch that sound similar to Revelation 20. Here are a few passages.



    It appears that 1 Enoch is alluded to in the NT.

    cf. Mat 25:41, 1 Pe 3:19-20, 2 Pet 2:4, Jud 1:6

    Enoch mentions the abyss and imprisoned angels that rebelled, similar to the way Satan is imprisoned in the bottomless pit (9:1,2,11 11:7 17:8 20:1,3). Seven stars and seven mountains are mentioned in Enoch (cf. Rev 1:16,20 2:1 3:1 8:8 17:9). Rather than 1000, 10000 years are mentioned. Should this imagery affect our understanding of the millennium, considering Enoch is mentioned in the NT? Should the seven mountains be considered seven Roman emperors (Rev 17:9)?
    If it's a source of the imagery used, it should absolutely be used to assist in understanding what has been canonized. It would be foolish to limit one's study to the words quoted. When Jesus quoted the opening lines of Psalm 22 on the cross, he was certainly not intending those listening to only pick up on the words quoted.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

  5. Amen KingsGambit, Rushing Jaws amen'd this post.
  6. #5
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Southeastern U.S. of A.
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    53,138
    Amen (Given)
    1127
    Amen (Received)
    19462
    Quote Originally Posted by Faber View Post
    The fact that 1 Enoch is cited in the New Testament is not a stamp of approval on its Divine Inspiration.

    Consider this: Paul cites text from the Assumption of Moses; twice he quotes Epimenides' Ode to Zeus. His references to Jannes & Jambres (2 Timothy 3:8) is from an apocryphal book, according to Origen.

    Other books are cited in the Old Testament which no longer exist. Book of Jasher (or Upright; 2 Samuel 1:18); Book of the Wars of the Lord (Numbers 21:14-15), etc.

    Do I believe the archangel Michael disputed with Satan over the body of Moses? Do I believe that three hundred angels had sex with women and produced giant offspring thousands of feet tall? No. I think Jude and Paul were citing these stories in the same manner that preachers today cite Pilgrim's Progress or those multitude of glurge stories.
    Further in I Chronicles 29:29 the Book of Samuel the Seer, Book of Nathan the Prophet, and the Book of Gad the Seer are all cited.

    Likewise, on Mars' Hill Paul quotes the Greek poet Aratus' Phaenomena in Acts 17:28, Menander's Thais in I Corinthians 15:33 and, in Titus 1:12, "One of the Cretans, a prophet of their own" (identified as Epimenides by Clement of Alexandria in his Stromata). Further when Paul refers to kicking against the pricks or goads in Acts 26:14 that term comes from Aeschylus' Agamemnon.

    Obviously that doesn't mean Christians should therefore consider Phaenomena, Thais, Agamemnon and whichever of Epimenides' works are divinely inspired

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

  7. #6
    tWebber eschaton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Durango, Co
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    105
    Amen (Given)
    4
    Amen (Received)
    6

    questions

    If I understand the comments, we shouldn't limit our consideration to the verses quoted, and 1 Enoch isn't necessarily inspired. Okay. Does the similar imagery and ideas in the NT mean anything? If no then I don't understand why. If yes, then what?
    BTW, thanks for the comments.
    Last edited by eschaton; 01-13-2019 at 08:55 AM. Reason: additional thoughts

  8. #7
    tWebber Rushing Jaws's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Near my best friend (see photo above)
    Faith
    Catholic XPian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    680
    Amen (Given)
    1937
    Amen (Received)
    135
    Quote Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
    If I understand the comments, we shouldn't limit our consideration to the verses quoted, and 1 Enoch isn't necessarily inspired. Okay. Does the similar imagery and ideas in the NT mean anything? If no then I don't understand why. If yes, then what?
    BTW, thanks for the comments.
    Inter-testamental Jewish literature is as legitimate a source of NT imagery. ideas, and doctrine as the OT. Whether a book is part of the OT, is totally irrelevant to whether or not there is a sound basis for judging that it influenced the NT.

    If Jude thought that 1 Enoch was inspired - and by normal Fundamentalist logic, his quoting the words of 1 Enoch 1.9 in Jude 14-15 would be taken as proof that Enoch, before the Flood, had been moved by God to predict the false teachers deplored by Jude, and would be reckoned as “fulfilment of prophecy” - then so be it. There is no *Biblical* reason why Jude “must have” accepted as canonical all and only the books accepted as canonical by later traditions in Christianity. What the Council of Carthage, or the Westminster Confession, or the Council of Florence, may have taught about the extent of the canon, could not be more totally irrelevant, because the text that needs explaining is not what any of those say, but what Jude says.

    It is totally, totally, totally, totally illegitimate to require the Biblical texts to say or mean what later Jewish or Christian orthodoxies want, need, imagine or would like them to mean. All that matters, is to discover, as accurately as possible, what the most accurate possible text of a passage means. The purpose of finding what a passage means, is never ever to validate or shore up a favourite doctrine or dogma, but to deal honestly and truthfully with the text.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •