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Thread: Time to redefine Evangelicals

  1. #1
    tWebber
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    Time to redefine Evangelicals

    Frank Schaeffer may be painting with the broad brush now and then. Some of his points are, however, very good if you remember that what he says does not go for all Evangelicals but for some or perhaps most of them.

    Here is an interesting point on how they lost their future without understanding it:

    People trust religious leaders to be honest and moral, and when that is gone little influence remains. Evangelicals donít know it yet but their complicity with Trump just killed them.
    I am not too certian about the "don't know it yet" thing. I think they already have a feeling that they have associated themselves with a man who is very, very likely to put them in very bad light and expose how they compromised way too much in order to win the world - in a political sense. I have a feeling this is the cause for all the "where is the evidence", "Trump is not a liar, you just disagree" stuff so often exposed on tweb. It is a bit desperate but I get that they haven't managed to seperate themselves enough from Trump and I have a feeling they know that to some degree they will fall with him and wont have much credibility when they will need to redefine themselves.

    I have shared my view on how I find Trump supporters are compromising their faith. Frank Schaeffer has a different interpretation:

    The Bible Trumpís evangelicals quote sanctifies humanityís moral infancy idolizing the worldview of the Iron Age, leaving believers susceptible to justifying all manner of Trumpís evil in the name of God
    And he goes on to say:

    Evangelical religion has made evangelical leaders and ordinary Bible-believers susceptible to courtship by Trumpís authoritarian, bigoted, sexist, tribal, anti-intellectual greed-mongers who dangle the carrot of theocracy. It is time to define evangelical voters as a hate group.
    Can't say I disagree. I would only add that it does not go for all Evangelicals.
    Last edited by Charles; 01-12-2019 at 10:39 AM.

  2. #2
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles View Post
    Frank Schaeffer may be painting with the broad brush now and then. Some of his points are, however, very good if you remember that what he says does not go for all Evangelicals but for some or perhaps most of them.

    Here is an interesting point on how they lost their future without understanding it:

    People trust religious leaders to be honest and moral, and when that is gone little influence remains. Evangelicals donít know it yet but their complicity with Trump just killed them.

    Trump is not a religious leader, your and Schaeffer's confusion notwithstanding.

    Evangelicals are not defined by who that do or do not vote for and only the terminally ignorant would think so.

    Get back in the car Chuck

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" -- starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)

  4. Amen mossrose, NorrinRadd, RumTumTugger amen'd this post.
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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    Trump is not a religious leader, your and Schaeffer's confusion notwithstanding.
    I never said he was and neither did Schaeffer so it appears you misunderstood something or were going for a straw man. In case you missed the point it is rather simple. When religious leaders compromise when they cooperate with polical leaders it weakens their authority as religious leaders. I thought that was pretty clear already.

    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    Evangelicals are not defined by who that do or do not vote for and only the terminally ignorant would think so.
    Again you are refering to a statement that has not been made.

    If you think you can excuse family separations, covering over the lies and whatever and somehow talk your way out of it having an influence on your credibility as a religious leader or an Evangelical, you are wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    Get back in the car Chuck
    Find a grown up way to communicate.

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    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post

    Trump is not a religious leader, your and Schaeffer's confusion notwithstanding.

    Evangelicals are not defined by who that do or do not vote for and only the terminally ignorant would think so.

    Get back in the car Chuck
    Frankie Schaeffer also has an anti-evangelical axe to grind. I've never really paid much attention to his views, which are mostly only considered relevant because his dad was famous.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. Ė St. John Chrysostom

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  7. Amen NorrinRadd, RumTumTugger amen'd this post.
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    Professor and Chaplain Littlejoe's Avatar
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    This is going around Facebook. I think maybe it will give you some insight into the thinking that got Trump elected:

    HOW I FEEL ABOUT TRUMP

    You've been on vacation for two weeks, you come home, and your basement is infested with raccoons. Hundreds of rabid, messy, mean raccoons have overtaken your basement. You want them gone immediately. You call the city and 4 different exterminators, but nobody can handle the job. But there is this one guy and he guarantees to get rid of them, so you hire him. You don't care if the guy smells, you don't care if the guy swears, you don't care if he's an alcoholic, you don't care how many times he's been married, you don't care if he has a plumber's crack, you simply want those raccoons gone! You want your problem fixed! He's the guy. He's the best!
    Here's why we want Trump. Yes he's a bit of a jerk; yes he's an egomaniac; but we don't care. The country is a mess because politicians suck, the Republicans and Democrats can be two-faced and gutless, and illegals are everywhere. We want it all fixed! We don't care that Trump is crude, we don't care that he insults people, we don't care that he has changed positions, we don't care that he's been married 3 times, we don't care that he fights with Megyn Kelly and Rosie O'Donnell, we don't care that he doesn't know the name of some Muslim terrorist.
    This country became weak and bankrupt, our enemies were making fun of us, we are being invaded by illegals, we are becoming a nation of victims where every Tom, Ricardo, and Hasid is a special group with special rights to a point where we don't even recognize the country we were born and raised in; " AND WE JUST WANT IT FIXED ". And Trump is the only guy who seems to understand what the people want.
    We're sick of politicians, sick of the Democratic Party, the Republican Party, and sick of illegals. We just want this thing fixed . Trump may not be a saint, but we didnít vote for a Pope. We voted for a man who doesn't have lobbyist money holding him back, a man who doesn't have political correctness restraining him. We all know that he has been very successful, heís a good negotiator, he has built a lot of things, and he's also not a politician, not a cowardly politician. And he says he'll fix it. And we believe him because he is too much of an egotist to be proven wrong or looked at and called a liar. Also, we don't care if the guy has bad hair. We just want those raccoons gone, out of our house, NOW .
    You are welcome to pass this on. Thousands of people who haven't voted in 25 years seem to be getting involved. And the more people get this message, the more that will understand why Trump was elected. The raccoons have got to go!


    Many of us are "...sick of politicians, sick of the Democratic Party, the Republican Party, and sick of illegals." I think this statement is a biggie.
    "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

    "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

  9. Amen mossrose, RumTumTugger amen'd this post.
  10. #7
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Frankie Schaeffer also has an anti-evangelical axe to grind. I've never really paid much attention to his views, which are mostly only considered relevant because his dad was famous.
    I don't consider him relevant because of his father and since you honestly tell us that "I've never really paid much attention to his views" you would not know if there was a another reason to pay attention to him.

    And the "Frankie Schaeffer also has an anti-evangelical axe to grind" statement appears to me like a rather bad excuse for not caring about the content and putting focus on the person instead. Feel free to tell me if I am wrong and why I am wrong about that.

    By the way the Rogue-post you quoted is a straw man post like I showed in my comments on it: http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post604734

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Littlejoe View Post
    This is going around Facebook. I think maybe it will give you some insight into the thinking that got Trump elected:

    HOW I FEEL ABOUT TRUMP

    You've been on vacation for two weeks, you come home, and your basement is infested with raccoons. Hundreds of rabid, messy, mean raccoons have overtaken your basement. You want them gone immediately. You call the city and 4 different exterminators, but nobody can handle the job. But there is this one guy and he guarantees to get rid of them, so you hire him. You don't care if the guy smells, you don't care if the guy swears, you don't care if he's an alcoholic, you don't care how many times he's been married, you don't care if he has a plumber's crack, you simply want those raccoons gone! You want your problem fixed! He's the guy. He's the best!
    Here's why we want Trump. Yes he's a bit of a jerk; yes he's an egomaniac; but we don't care. The country is a mess because politicians suck, the Republicans and Democrats can be two-faced and gutless, and illegals are everywhere. We want it all fixed! We don't care that Trump is crude, we don't care that he insults people, we don't care that he has changed positions, we don't care that he's been married 3 times, we don't care that he fights with Megyn Kelly and Rosie O'Donnell, we don't care that he doesn't know the name of some Muslim terrorist.
    This country became weak and bankrupt, our enemies were making fun of us, we are being invaded by illegals, we are becoming a nation of victims where every Tom, Ricardo, and Hasid is a special group with special rights to a point where we don't even recognize the country we were born and raised in; " AND WE JUST WANT IT FIXED ". And Trump is the only guy who seems to understand what the people want.
    We're sick of politicians, sick of the Democratic Party, the Republican Party, and sick of illegals. We just want this thing fixed . Trump may not be a saint, but we didnít vote for a Pope. We voted for a man who doesn't have lobbyist money holding him back, a man who doesn't have political correctness restraining him. We all know that he has been very successful, heís a good negotiator, he has built a lot of things, and he's also not a politician, not a cowardly politician. And he says he'll fix it. And we believe him because he is too much of an egotist to be proven wrong or looked at and called a liar. Also, we don't care if the guy has bad hair. We just want those raccoons gone, out of our house, NOW .
    You are welcome to pass this on. Thousands of people who haven't voted in 25 years seem to be getting involved. And the more people get this message, the more that will understand why Trump was elected. The raccoons have got to go!


    Many of us are "...sick of politicians, sick of the Democratic Party, the Republican Party, and sick of illegals." I think this statement is a biggie.
    Well here is what they seemingly should add to the list:

    - We don't care that innocent children suffer deeply and for extended periods of time because they are ripped out of their parents arms and taken away from them.
    - We don't care that the president lies, lies and lies.
    - We don't care about how the president talks about people we don't like anyway, let him call them whatever.
    - We don't care that the guy we claimed to elect to take care of our contry trusts Putin over his own intelligence services
    - We don't care that Trump says the following about Kim Jong Un who runs concentration camps, starves and kills his own people: "He's got a great personality. He's a funny guy, he's very smart, he's a great negotiator. He loves his people, not that I'm surprised by that,"
    - We don't care that he talks in favour of the use of violence.

    And the list goes on but I suppose you don't care.

    If any of those guys talked about how they did not care about the price they had to pay, it would be interesting. Seems to me this is mostly about not caring about the consequences others will have to bear. "Sick of illegals"... I think you might want to find other words...

  12. #9
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles View Post
    I don't consider him relevant because of his father and since you honestly tell us that "I've never really paid much attention to his views" you would not know if there was a another reason to pay attention to him.
    You like what he says because he's a useful source with which to troll Evangelicals. This is the second time you've quoted him in order to do so, and you have yet use his words for anything else whatsoever.
    And the "Frankie Schaeffer also has an anti-evangelical axe to grind" statement appears to me like a rather bad excuse for not caring about the content and putting focus on the person instead. Feel free to tell me if I am wrong and why I am wrong about that.
    You're wrong because I'm aware that he converted to Orthodoxy and proceeded to bad-mouth Protestantism, of which Evangelicalism is a subset.
    By the way the Rogue-post you quoted is a straw man post like I showed in my comments on it: http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post604734
    Rogue's post was pretty on-target, your attempts to wave it away notwithstanding. Troll harder, bro.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. Ė St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

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  13. #10
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    You like what he says because he's a useful source with which to troll Evangelicals. This is the second time you've quoted him in order to do so, and you have yet use his words for anything else whatsoever.
    Of course it is impossible to imagine that I actually like some of what he says because I agree with it. Play a mind reader as much as you like. If you read the opening post you will see I don't completely agree with him and I also point out that he is painting with the broad brush. Go to his webpage. You will find story after story after story that I have not used but they could have been very useful if I wanted to troll. There is a post called "TRUMP AND MILLER (THE JEWISH NAZI) WOULD HAVE GLADLY DROWNED THE BROWN CHILDREN IN THAILAND" that would be good trolling stuff if that was my aim but I dislike the post and think he should remove it.

    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    You're wrong because I'm aware that he converted to Orthodoxy and proceeded to bad-mouth Protestantism, of which Evangelicalism is a subset.
    Sorry but that does not prove that he could not have a fair point and that it is not worth reading what he says. Again why would you rather focus on the person than the content of what he says?

    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Rogue's post was pretty on-target, your attempts to wave it away notwithstanding. Troll harder, bro.
    Since I showed why Rogue was wrong and all you do is to just make a statement that his post was pretty on target without even considering the points who is actually trolling, here? The one who provides reasons or the one who does not?

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