Originally posted by seven7up
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From my point of view, God has plans that cannot be frustrated, but those plans are based on God knowing that there are non-divine entities that God has to work with in reality, which may have less than desirable results.
In the Ex Nihilo scenario, God truly is starting from scratch, and God could create any kind of creature or reality that is logically possible.
In your dice scenario, the life choices (simplified for brevity’s sake) for me would be:
1,4,3,6,5,4.
Now, in the third choice for example, there were 6 possible futures God could have created for me based on that choice. But, He knew before I was created that I would choose the 3, therefore the possible worlds of 1,2,4,5, and 6 were not actualized. He did not MAKE me to choose 3, He simply didn’t actualize the other 5 worlds based on His foreknowledge of me choosing 3. Same with every other die roll. Could He have made me to choose 4? Absolutely, had He foreknown that I would choose 4 instead. That is called Middle Knowledge.
7UP: It isn't the same argument, because your system is Ex Nihilo.
(Bill puts on the blinders, plugs his ears, and says LA , LA , LA , LA , LA , LA , LA , LA !)
(Bill puts on the blinders, plugs his ears, and says LA , LA , LA , LA , LA , LA , LA , LA !)
7up: In LDS theology, the physical existence is a parallel of the spiritual existence. We believe that our spirits chose to enter physical bodies, and therefore, the possibility exists that the eternal intelligence had some kind of will to enter a spiritual body.
Is God capable of preventing a rapist from raping a child? Yes. But He doesn't.
Is God capable of preventing a rapist from raping a child? Yes. But He doesn't.
True. Both of us believe that God has the power to stop it. However, in your theology, God foreknew the rape before God even decided to create the rapist from God's own mind; the rape was nothing but a concept in God's mind before God decided to make it into reality.
Let’s take your dice example again, for grins and giggles. The rape would be a 1 on that die. God COULD have created a world where the rapist would simply pass by the victim (roll a 2), walk to the other side of the street (roll a 3), turn around and run (roll a 4), meet the person without raping them (roll a 5), or simply murder them on sight (roll a 6), but God’s foreknowledge was that the person would rape the victim, so He created world 1, and simply did not create world 2-6, even though they theoretically also existed in God’s mind. And by doing so, the person exercised their free will without God violating it by creating a world that He thought would be better for that person.
In my theology, the rapist already existed and God simply allows free will to continue.
God would be abstaining from creating evil from God's own mind (whether you find it arbitrary or not is besides the point). Again, you are blind if you don't see the difference between my view and yours.
No more than your God is a "slave" to logic (or logical contradictions).
No more than God is "subject to your will", Bill.
Please explain why you think it is a violation of their free will.
I repeat, I don't pretend to know the nature of God's foreknowledge. I can say that God knows all that is possible to know.
Not at all. God COULD stop the progression (just like he could stop the rapist). However, God allows free will. That is not the same as saying that our will is greater than God's. If you attempt that argument, you are arguing against yourself.
Ex nihilo does not allow for free will, not true free will.
Why did Adam and Eve fall?
Why was Eve so easily deceived?
Why were they so ignorant and irrational?
Who created them that way?
In your theology, God created every single aspect of their being to be exactly as they were, and God was limited only by logical contradictions in God's own mind.
In my theology, God is limited by the logical contradictions inherent with dealing with eternal entities which already had some kind of characteristics, and thus has a superior explanation for why the world is the way it is. There is no way you can try to wiggle your way out of this.
Joseph Smith revealed the truth, and the truth cuts its own way.
Is "all powerful" supposed to mean being able to do EVERYTHING, even if it is logically contradictory?
Does omnipotence imply that God will necessarily infringe on the agency of an eternal entity with free will?[/I]
Lucifer was organized by some kind of spiritual procreation, the details of which have not been revealed to us, and perhaps we couldn't understand it at this time anyways.
"[God] created man, as we create our children; for there is no other process of creation in heaven, on the earth, in the earth, or under the earth, or in all the eternities, that is, that were, or that ever will be."
— Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 11:122.
However, think of the physical procreation of a child. Can you choose if the child has red hair or brown?
Can you choose the child's personality traits?
Ezekiel 36:26-27
26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
What if the generation of all of the spirits has to occur all at once and some that are procreated are good and others are bad?
Some of our writers have endeavored to explain what an intelligence is, but to do so is futile, for we have never been given any insight into this matter beyond what the Lord has fragmentarily revealed. We know, however, that there is something called intelligence which always existed. It is the real eternal part of man, which was not created or made. This intelligence combined with the spirit constitutes a spiritual identity or individual
He claims that the LDS church doesn’t even know WHAT an intelligence is, much less has it defined that it is an individual capable of good or bad prior to being joined with spirit material.
The point is that there are non-divine realities that God must deal with in LDS theology.
That is not the case in Ex Nihilo theology, because God was the only thing in existence before God decided to create.
(Bill arguing against himself.)
You wish that were the case, but you fail to admit that there is a fundamental difference between the implications from your theology and the LDS view.
Again, I will point out your contradictory arguments. Here is what you are attempting:
The rapist demands to rape, and God has no choice but to allow it. He can command the rapist not to rape, but the rapist can deny the command. Thus: God is a slave to the rapist.
Griffin: Second, there might be some eternal, uncreated, necessary principles (beyond purely logical truths) about the way these actualities can be ordered which limit the sorts of situations that are really possible. - Griffin
7UP: "Principles" have no will. They have no personal relationship with others (ie are not interpersonal). Furthermore, that is like arguing against Christians who say that God cannot overcome logical contradictions. Are logical contradictions, or is logic in general, more powerful than the evangelical God?
The rapist demands to rape, and God has no choice but to allow it. He can command the rapist not to rape, but the rapist can deny the command. Thus: God is a slave to the rapist.
Griffin: Second, there might be some eternal, uncreated, necessary principles (beyond purely logical truths) about the way these actualities can be ordered which limit the sorts of situations that are really possible. - Griffin
7UP: "Principles" have no will. They have no personal relationship with others (ie are not interpersonal). Furthermore, that is like arguing against Christians who say that God cannot overcome logical contradictions. Are logical contradictions, or is logic in general, more powerful than the evangelical God?
Therefore, God could logically and lawfully create a rational and moral being of free will out of nothing.
If God's nature limits God to creating imperfect creatures from God's own imagination, then that is an indictment against God's nature or abilities.
Stop trying to avoid the issues Bill. Trying to hide behind the silly comments of "he isn't here" doesn't help you. I'm here, and Griffith is merely bringing up the same kinds of points and concept that I have explained.
Wrong. AND you added mockery in order to make an even bigger fool of yourself. Nice.
I am only raising the possibility that free will can be part of the process. Free will choices does not necessarily "trump God's sovereignty". You know that. It is becoming abundantly clear that you like to speak out of both sides of your mouth. Sorry Bill. I won't let you get away with it. I will point it out every time you attempt it.
7UP: As you can see, the burden falls on your theology and on your God, because that entity did not exist AT ALL, before God decided how, if, and when to create it.
Then why actively create from nothing those that God knows won't choose Him, or with characteristics which God knows will lead those individuals not to choose Him.
Then why actively create from nothing those that God knows won't choose Him, or with characteristics which God knows will lead those individuals not to choose Him.
As we have discussed, merely being irrational will lead to sinful choices. Is God not capable of creating rational beings?
In my theology, irrationality may be an eternally inherent characteristic.
There isn't the same control. There are eternal non divine realities in LDS theology that are outside of God's control.
Your mind is not flexible enough to comprehend this concept, OR you are being purposefully obtuse.
7UP: Surely you can see the difference between
1) God allowing an eternal free agent, who has certain characteristics, to make choices
2) God creating the creature, and every single characteristic that the creature possesses, from God's own imagination
1) God allowing an eternal free agent, who has certain characteristics, to make choices
2) God creating the creature, and every single characteristic that the creature possesses, from God's own imagination
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