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Federal judge strikes down effort to add citizenship question to Census

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Starlight View Post
    Depends on what the purposes of the census are. Usually a key use of census data is for every level of government to be able to use it to know how many people are in their particular area. So it's generally more important that the head-count is accurate than it is to know anything at all about those people.

    What makes you regard it as 'unjust'?
    Because the census sets up the congressional districts and counting non citizens as citizens gives advantages to those boarder states in the house vs non boarder states.
    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

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    • #17
      Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
      Because the census sets up the congressional districts and counting non citizens as citizens gives advantages to those boarder states in the house vs non boarder states.
      It doesn't affect very many seats so isn't a big deal.

      There are already existing problems with non-proportionality within the current system, as the large ratio between the high population of California as compared to the low population of the smallest states means that California is underrepresented in the House due to the limitation of 435 total seats.

      Usefully those two effects actually cancel out fairly well - California is the main loser of seats due to state population ratios and the 435 seat limit, and is also the main gainer of seats from immigrants being counted in the population with regard to seat calculation. The net upshot of these two calculation errors is that the actual seat distributions end up reasonably proportional to actual citizen population.

      Technically, would it be nice to have perfect proportionality and have neither error occurring? Sure. But it's close enough. And if one is concerned about lack of proportionality within the US government, the Senate is clearly a far bigger issue than House.
      "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
      "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
      "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Starlight View Post
        It doesn't affect very many seats so isn't a big deal.

        There are already existing problems with non-proportionality within the current system, as the large ratio between the high population of California as compared to the low population of the smallest states means that California is underrepresented in the House due to the limitation of 435 total seats.

        Usefully those two effects actually cancel out fairly well - California is the main loser of seats due to state population ratios and the 435 seat limit, and is also the main gainer of seats from immigrants being counted in the population with regard to seat calculation. The net upshot of these two calculation errors is that the actual seat distributions end up reasonably proportional to actual citizen population.

        Technically, would it be nice to have perfect proportionality and have neither error occurring? Sure. But it's close enough. And if one is concerned about lack of proportionality within the US government, the Senate is clearly a far bigger issue than House.
        I wonder if your tune would be the same if it was Republicans gaining seats, but basic math shows as much as 15 seats to be gained by counting illegal immigrants in the census. Hardly the small effect that you claim it is.
        "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
        GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Starlight View Post
          It doesn't affect very many seats so isn't a big deal..
          If it affects 1, that's too many.
          That's what
          - She

          Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
          - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

          I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
          - Stephen R. Donaldson

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Starlight View Post
            It doesn't affect very many seats so isn't a big deal.
            Here's an analogous argument for you: Prohibiting gay marriage doesn't affect very many people so it isn't a big deal.

            Maybe try a different angle?
            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
            sigpic
            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
              If it affects 1, that's too many.
              I doubt any immigrants that are here illegally fill out the census anyway, heck, plenty of citizens and legal immigrants don't even answer it. But the Constitution says nothing about citizenship, but a head count, which included slaves. At any rate, whether you think it's a big deal or not, Wilbur Ross lied to Congress about it which is a Felony should the House request an FBI investigation. He will be summoned back to Congress.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by JimL View Post
                I doubt any immigrants that are here illegally fill out the census anyway, heck, plenty of citizens and legal immigrants don't even answer it.
                We'll never know now...

                But the Constitution says nothing about citizenship, but a head count, which included slaves.
                Exactly. It specified that even people considered non-citizens were to be counted. The only persons not counted were legally residing Indians who were not subject to taxes.

                Source: https://www.census.gov/history/pdf/Article_1_Section_2.pdf


                Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons. The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years, in such Manner as they shall by Law direct.

                © Copyright Original Source



                At any rate, whether you think it's a big deal or not, Wilbur Ross lied to Congress about it which is a Felony should the House request an FBI investigation. He will be summoned back to Congress.
                Yeah, no he didn't. The hack activist Obama nominee Jesse Furman regurgitated. There's a reason many of these garbage findings come from the Southern District of New York. And Furman is a prime example of it. He's so far to the left that he actually leans while hearing cases
                That's what
                - She

                Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                - Stephen R. Donaldson

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by JimL View Post
                  I doubt any immigrants that are here illegally fill out the census anyway, heck, plenty of citizens and legal immigrants don't even answer it. But the Constitution says nothing about citizenship, but a head count, which included slaves.
                  Jim is not entirely incorrect in most of what he said here.

                  At any rate, whether you think it's a big deal or not, Wilbur Ross lied to Congress about it which is a Felony should the House request an FBI investigation. He will be summoned back to Congress.
                  It kind of amuses me that somebody can get in trouble for lying to a bunch of liars.
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                    Here's an analogous argument for you: Prohibiting gay marriage doesn't affect very many people so it isn't a big deal.
                    A serious violation of human rights isn't equivalent to a small dis-proportionality in political representation in a system that is already non-proportionate.
                    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                      A serious violation of human rights isn't equivalent to a small dis-proportionality in political representation in a system that is already non-proportionate.


                      One chamber is divided up by population.
                      "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                      GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                        One chamber is divided up by population.
                        Not very accurately though. As I noted previously, this error in accuracy actually seems likely to improve total accuracy as it counteracts another error.
                        "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                        "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                        "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                          Not very accurately though. As I noted previously, this error in accuracy actually seems likely to improve total accuracy as it counteracts another error.
                          Asserted, not shown.
                          "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                          GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                            A serious violation of human rights isn't equivalent to a small dis-proportionality in political representation in a system that is already non-proportionate.
                            I knew that would get your attention. I was also afraid you'd draw the wrong conclusions.
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                            sigpic
                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              1930 census.jpg
                              1940 census.jpg
                              1990 census.jpg
                              1950 census.jpg
                              When I Survey....

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                                But ....

                                The Census is a crucial document for determining how federal funds are allocated and how congressional districts are drawn for the following 10-year period. It is meant to account for everyone living in the United States, not just US citizens. The citizenship question has not been asked of all recipients since 1950.
                                What is the source for this claim since Faber shows it being included in the 1990 Census
                                Originally posted by Faber View Post


                                [ATTACH=CONFIG]34499[/ATTACH]

                                I'm always still in trouble again

                                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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