So what is this toxic masculinity thing anyhow?

[Sparko]

Neither can you

And yet we have a basis for morality and you don't. So your whining about "informed consent" and whether pedophilia is immoral is nothing but your personal opinion, based on your preferences and has no authority on anyone else. If a Pedophile decides that informed consent is not needed and that having sex with children is OK, then there is nothing objectively wrong with it. It is just his preferences vs yours. It would be like you complaining that chocolate is evil and someone else saying chocolate is good.

You have been wasting your time on Theologyweb arguing morals that you believe don't even exist for years. Keeping you here has been the biggest trolling campaign in history.

[Bill the Cat]

Yes, my typical response to an irrelevant post.

Legally allowed consent of a minor is not irrelevant to a statement about the legal consent of a minor... indeed...

[Mountain Man]

At what age does a child attain the maturity to provide informed consent?

At whatever age society and the law decide, apparently. As Jimmy said, "We evolve, we learn, we change our views."

[Sparko]

Parents force children to do lots of things without informed consent. That's kind of their job. So "informed consent" doesn't seem to have anything to do with morality itself. It would be like saying a parent can't tell their child to go to bed at 9PM because the child can't give informed consent.

[Mountain Man]

Parents force children to do lots of things without informed consent. That's kind of their job. So "informed consent" doesn't seem to have anything to do with morality itself. It would be like saying a parent can't tell their child to go to bed at 9PM because the child can't give informed consent.

And what about medical care? It's up to the parents to provide consent on the child's behalf.

[alaskazimm]

And what about medical care? It's up to the parents to provide consent on the child's behalf.

Kind of. When I was on the ambulance crew, when we worked on a child with no care giver around we did so under implied consent. That is by law we could treat a child without parental consent on the assumption that any reasonable parent would want their child treated. I would assume hosptial ERs would work under the same rules.

[Tassman]

Of course all this begs the question. What if the adult with the "atypical sexual interest" is not unscrupulous and does not use trickery or deceit?

Children, by definition, are not sufficiently mature to proved informed consent in such circumstances.

[Tassman]

And yet we have a basis for morality and you don't.

So your whining about "informed consent" and whether pedophilia is immoral is nothing but your personal opinion, based on your preferences and has no authority on anyone else.

If a Pedophile decides that informed consent is not needed and that having sex with children is OK, then there is nothing objectively wrong with it. It is just his preferences vs yours.

his preference vs that of current social values which have the force of Law to ensure compliance.

[Mountain Man]

Children, by definition, are not sufficiently mature to proved informed consent in such circumstances.

According to current legal definition, yes... but laws can be changed, and without a solid, objective basis for moral thought, there's nothing to stop society from changing laws on a cultural whim. As Jimmy argued, "We evolve, we learn, we change our views."

[Cow Poke]

At whatever age society and the law decide, apparently. As Jimmy said, "We evolve, we learn, we change our views."

And he has also argued defending NAMBLA's challenge to age of consent laws.

[One Bad Pig]

According to the speculations of the History of Religions school, yes. Of course, they agree with your a priori belief that God is a fiction, so you uncritically espouse their views.

[Tassman]

According to current legal definition, yes... but laws can be changed,

and without a solid, objective basis for moral thought, there's nothing to stop society from changing laws on a cultural whim. As Jimmy argued, "We evolve, we learn, we change our views."

You witter on about

[Mountain Man]

People used to say the same thing about the legalization of homosexuality, and they were just as convinced as you that society would always have the good sense to never accept something so obviously perverse. But here we are.

You witter on about

In other words, you essentially concede the point that secular society has no moral grounding that would allow it to definitively condemn something like pedophilia, and that if cultural values "evolve" sufficiently then you will happily defend the pedophile just as readily as you defend the homosexual.

[Tassman]

People used to say the same thing about the legalization of homosexuality, and they were just as convinced as you that society would always have the good sense to never accept something so obviously perverse. But here we are.

The difference between homosexuality and pedophilia (or rape, or slavery or Jim Crow discrimination etc) is that relations between same-sex couples is by mutual consent, i.e. there are no victims.

In other words, you essentially concede the point that secular society has no moral grounding that would allow it to definitively condemn something like pedophilia, and that if cultural values "evolve" sufficiently then you will happily defend the pedophile just as readily as you defend the homosexual.

I'm conceding nothing of the sort. Morality all comes from the same place, namely the community values of the day. Whether attributed to a deity as the source or recognizing the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as the source makes no difference. They ALL originated via man in community.

[Mountain Man]

The difference between homosexuality and pedophilia (or rape, or slavery or Jim Crow discrimination etc) is that relations between same-sex couples is by mutual consent, i.e. there are no victims.

We've been over this already, this is a legal objection and not a moral one. Simply change the law, and this objection disappears.

I'm conceding nothing of the sort. Morality all comes from the same place, namely the community values of the day. Whether attributed to a deity as the source or recognizing the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as the source makes no difference. They ALL originated via man in community.

Right, and if the "community" changes its mind regarding pedophilia, you have no grounds to object.