So what is this toxic masculinity thing anyhow?

[Mountain Man]

Personally, I think femininity/feminism can be "toxic" as well. If I open a door for a woman as an act of courtesy, and I am rewarded with a "yet another male chauvinist pig," I tend to think of that as "toxic feminity/feminism.

On the contrary, she's simply aware of the microaggression and inherent biases that your own toxic masculinity blinds you to.

[carpedm9587]

On the contrary, she's simply aware of the microaggression and inherent biases that your own toxic masculinity blinds you to.

[Mountain Man]

It's always hilarious when you feign confusion.

[carpedm9587]

It's always hilarious when you feign confusion.

You guys just cannot help yourself when it comes to trying to read minds...

The confusion was not feigned, but I'm sure that will not be believed.

[Mountain Man]

In that case, I'm somewhat at loss as to how I could make my point any more clear.

It ties back to always seeing what you want to see. A woman who has been thoroughly steeped in "toxic masculinity" propaganda will regard even the most well-intentioned gesture with suspicion because she just "knows" that you're being sexist even if you're not consciously aware of it because of certain biases that, in her mind, are inherent to all males.

[Cow Poke]

You guys just cannot help yourself when it comes to trying to read minds...

The confusion was not feigned, but I'm sure that will not be believed.

I believe you are honestly confused.

[Sparko]

From now on when I hold a door open for a women, and she goes through and says, "Thank you" I think I will just say "You're welcome. I'm just being toxic. Have a nice day!"

[carpedm9587]

In that case, I'm somewhat at loss as to how I could make my point any more clear.

It ties back to always seeing what you want to see. A woman who has been thoroughly steeped in "toxic masculinity" propaganda will regard even the most well-intentioned gesture with suspicion because she just "knows" that you're being sexist even if you're not consciously aware of it because of certain biases that, in her mind, are inherent to all males.

Yes - that is possible. The fact that someone can mistake one thing for another does not negate the fact that "toxic masculinity" exists. If you don't like the term "toxic masculinity," then use something else. The fact is, males who objectify women, treat them as second class citizens, and demean them in the belief that men are simply better and more entitled exist. It can be gross or subtle. The gross is the man who gives a woman a roofie or other drug to gain advantage, notches their belt with every "sexual conquest," or leverages their power in the workplace. The subtle is the difference between the man who opens the door with "let me get that for you," versus the man who opens the door with "there, y'are, little lady."

We live in a world that has been historically dominated by men - and vestiges of that remain all around us. Those are the things I tend to associate with "toxic masculinity."

[Sparko]

The subtle is the difference between the man who opens the door with "let me get that for you," versus the man who opens the door with "there, y'are, little lady."

So talking like a Texan is what makes a man toxic. Good to know.

[carpedm9587]

So talking like a Texan is what makes a man toxic. Good to know.

The example was intended to demonstrate that a man condescending to a woman because he's a man and she's a woman is one example of what is considered "toxic masculinity."

[Cow Poke]

...The subtle is the difference between the man who opens the door with "let me get that for you," versus the man who opens the door with "there, y'are, little lady."...

meh... even before "toxic masculinity" was invented, I would get pretty put out by men in my company at a restaurant who would address the waitress as "sweetie" or "honey" or "darlin".... Most women can tell when a man is being genuinely gentlemanly.

[Cow Poke]

The example was intended to demonstrate that a man condescending to a woman because he's a man and she's a woman is one example of what is considered "toxic masculinity."

We always called that "a jerk".

[Sparko]

The example was intended to demonstrate that a man condescending to a woman because he's a man and she's a woman is one example of what is considered "toxic masculinity."

But you would be the one assuming his motivation. He might be doing it because he respects women and was taught to do it because that is how you show respect to a lady. So yes, he was doing it because he is a man and she was a woman, but it was not being condescending.

[carpedm9587]

meh... even before "toxic masculinity" was invented, I would get pretty put out by men in my company at a restaurant who would address the waitress as "sweetie" or "honey" or "darlin".... Most women can tell when a man is being genuinely gentlemanly.

Agreed. "Toxic masculinity" is just a convenient handle to label a phenomenon. Jerk is the "super class." Sometimes, the beginning of dealing with a problem is naming it. "Jerk" is too broad for that purpose with respect to this specific issue.

But I agree - if everyone stopped being a jerk - "toxic masculinity" would go with it.

[Mountain Man]

meh... even before "toxic masculinity" was invented, I would get pretty put out by men in my company at a restaurant who would address the waitress as "sweetie" or "honey" or "darlin".... Most women can tell when a man is being genuinely gentlemanly.

Most waitresses will put up with it and even flirt back because they know it means a bigger tip.