So what is this toxic masculinity thing anyhow?

[Cow Poke]

At this point, I have read all of the responses, and responded to those I felt warranted a response. This discussion is showing every sign of going down the usual rathole. Personally, I think our society needs to look at white privilege, systemic racism, inherent bias, toxic masculinity, radical feminism, and all of the other ways in which many (most?) of us contribute to social dysfunction. I think more discussion - more awareness - more exploration leads to more understanding, and can only help all of us become better people. I believe all of these phenomena are rooted in very real phenomena.

If these phrases were truly intended to encourage "dialogue", they wouldn't be designed so they "can easily be misunderstood to be wildly insulting, even bigoted". This, IMOHBAO, is just another way for liberals to stick their thumb in the eye of their opponents.

But I also believe (based on past experience) that having a meaningful discussion about any of these issues here is simply impossible. So I'm going to disconnect rather than set myself up to go back to the space I was in the other night. Some of these are deeply held values - and most of the responses I get on this site make no attempt to respect those values. I don't trust myself to "stay cool," as they say.

Carpe, I really try, but, good grief, you get so ... um... (what's a gentler word than "triggered") even by EMOJIS....

I will read any further responses - but I won't be responding further.

You realize that one always comes back to bite you in the butt, yes?

[Cow Poke]

Wow, I honestly didn't expect you come right out and admit that you're a bigot. So tell me, do you wear a white hooded robe around your boys on a regular basis, or do you save it for special occasions?

This has been a challenging one... just in my life time....

Don't say the "N" word - but "Negro" is appropriate*.
Don't say "Negro" - "Black is beautiful"
Don't say "Black" - say "People of Color"
Don't say "People of Color" - say "African-American"

And now it looks like "black" and "blacks" are back in vogue.

(I generally just call them by their names)


*I've actually been told by some blacks that "Negro" isn't appropriate, but "Nigra" is.

[Cow Poke]

You realize that one always comes back to bite you in the butt, yes?

Actually - you're right. That was a pretty decent response. My bad.

I know I said no further responses - but I felt this needed to be acknowledged

But, seriously, I'm glad you did.

[carpedm9587]

But, seriously, I'm glad you did.

(not to mention that I snuck another post in by editing my response to RumTum.... )

[Bill the Cat]

In the end, I think you folks hate "toxic masculinity" because it narrows down to a particular type of person: a man. You are afraid all men can be (and sometimes inappropriately are) painted by that brush. Yet many people paint "liar" with too broad a brush, and no one is suggesting eliminating the word "liar." And I have listened to many objections to "radical feminism" with not a single person objecting to it as "narrowing down to one group" or "painting with too broad a brush." Yet, interestingly, a "radical feminist" is just a jerk, right? She's just a bully, correct? We should ditch the language "radical feminism," which is pretty close to the female equivalent of "toxic male." Yet that proposal is not made by anyone here.

Now I wonder why that might be...?

Men can be feminists too.

[Bill the Cat]

But women, too, can engage in the kinds of behaviors that are pigeon-holed as "toxic masculinity".

In other words, there is nothing inherently "masculine" about being a sexist, or a jerk, so describing those acts as "toxic masculinity" is a misnomer.

Which I have said multiple times to Carp and have gotten no response to.

[Bill the Cat]

Can - yes. Do on a widespread basis - not that I can see. As has been noted, "toxic masculinity" is an exaggerated form of masculine traits that makes them destructive, harmful, and denigrating - on the basis that "this is how a man acts." A woman cannot get to the latter. It's not just about the behavior - it's about the motivation for the behavior.

This is absolute claptrap, and again, has nothing to do with the offender's sex.

No - it's not - because the issue is not JUST about the behavior - it's about the motivation for, or driving force behind, the behavior.

The motivation is being a jackass. THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THEIR SEX!!

If someone is basing such negative behavior on a twisted understanding of what it means to be african-american, then the term is very apt. It is not currently in widespread use, but perhaps it should be.

[Sparko]

I agree with the APA. There are many aspects of "traditional masculinity" that are harmful.

Just as I thought. Carp, you started out handwaving away our concerns that "toxic masculinity" was an attack on men, stating it was only referring to destructive behaviors like sexual harrassment, rape, etc, but then you moved on to say it included innocuous behaviors like opening doors for women, and now you say even traditional masculinity is harmful.

You show that we were correct in the first place and you are a feminized man who has been subjugated and brainwashed by the radical feminsts into thinking your own gender is harmful. So sad.

[Sparko]

Why would you not respect all people equally, why just women?

Because men are toxic!

[Sparko]

Let me quote:

Toxic masculinity is a narrow and repressive description of manhood, designating manhood as defined by violence, sex, status and aggression. It’s the cultural ideal of manliness, where strength is everything while emotions are a weakness; where sex and brutality are yardsticks by which men are measured, while supposedly “feminine” traits—which can range from emotional vulnerability to simply not being hypersexual—are the means by which your status as “man” can be taken away.

First rape or violence against women is not acceptable. Crying, yes I see crying as a weakness and generally unmanly (though not always). And I believe men should be emotionally strong. I never saw my father or uncles cry. They never told me that boys shouldn't cry, but there was that example. I personally can not remember the last time I cried even after losing loved ones. I see no need for it. As far as aggression that is in our DNA:

Obviously the next step is to eliminate the evil hormone Testosterone completely. That will stop Toxic Masculinity in its tracks and make the world more loving and peaceful.

[Cow Poke]

Obviously the next step is to eliminate the evil hormone Testosterone completely. That will stop Toxic Masculinity in its tracks and make the world more loving and peaceful.

Why Men Should Shave Their Armpits
shaved-armpits-1508869022.jpg

[Sparko]

Obviously the next step is to eliminate the evil hormone Testosterone completely. That will stop Toxic Masculinity in its tracks and make the world more loving and peaceful.

wow. so this is actually a thing...

Male Sexual Misconduct and the Testosterone Curse
How might men’s sexual misbehavior be governed by a lawless libido?

Psychosocial forces, including a sexism that appears to have existed from time immemorial, as well as the patriarchal society we still inhabit, play a major role in this longstanding sexual oppression of women. And these factors are being increasingly discussed today. This article, however, will focus on what I believe is an even more essential contributor to such ethically deplorable subjugation. Moreover, it’s one that has been almost totally neglected by writers and political pundits alike. Namely, it’s the pressing hormonal influence that degrades principled behavior in males. . . . And, in the end, degrades our culture itself.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...osterone-curse

[Cow Poke]

wow. so this is actually a thing...

Male Sexual Misconduct and the Testosterone Curse
How might men’s sexual misbehavior be governed by a lawless libido?

Psychosocial forces, including a sexism that appears to have existed from time immemorial, as well as the patriarchal society we still inhabit, play a major role in this longstanding sexual oppression of women. And these factors are being increasingly discussed today. This article, however, will focus on what I believe is an even more essential contributor to such ethically deplorable subjugation. Moreover, it’s one that has been almost totally neglected by writers and political pundits alike. Namely, it’s the pressing hormonal influence that degrades principled behavior in males. . . . And, in the end, degrades our culture itself.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...osterone-curse

I wonder how long it will be before Male Testosterone supplements are outlawed.

testo fuel.jpg

[One Bad Pig]

Obviously the next step is to eliminate the evil hormone Testosterone completely. That will stop Toxic Masculinity in its tracks and make the world more loving and peaceful.

We can't have that. Think of all the men trapped in women's bodies, you heartless monster!

[seer]

Obviously the next step is to eliminate the evil hormone Testosterone completely. That will stop Toxic Masculinity in its tracks and make the world more loving and peaceful.

The problem with relativists like Carp is that there is no non-subjective definition for gender normative behavior, so defining toxic masculinity is vague and ambiguous. We end up pouring our own personal meaning into the term.