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So what is this toxic masculinity thing anyhow?

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  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    Then I don't want to hear you complain about slavery in the bible or any other actions taken by other societies that you don't like.
    The argument is about the alleged existence of ‘objective morality’. The fact that you choose to believe it exists doesn’t make it real, any more than the “objective morality” as believed by Muslims makes it real.

    God didn't tell us to stone anyone.
    Well he did say to stone disobedient children, but it is YOU who said “Homosexuality is still immoral; we just don't stone them anymore”. And the argument remains. You believe morality is objective and "align" yourself "with God, the source of that morality" as in the Bible.. The problem that so do Muslims “align themselves” with their God, the source of their morality as contained in the Koran.

    Always a problem when one has multiple ‘objective’ moralities.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
      The argument is about the alleged existence of ‘objective morality’. The fact that you choose to believe it exists doesn’t make it real, any more than the “objective morality” as believed by Muslims makes it real.



      Well he did say to stone disobedient children, but it is YOU who said “Homosexuality is still immoral; we just don't stone them anymore”. And the argument remains. You believe morality is objective and "align" yourself "with God, the source of that morality" as in the Bible.. The problem that so do Muslims “align themselves” with their God, the source of their morality as contained in the Koran.

      Always a problem when one has multiple ‘objective’ moralities.
      Baloney. People have multiple 'objective' beliefs about all sorts of objective things - how much a particular cake weighs, for example - and science is replete with differing theories about objective things. None of that means that there is no real, objective truth about the matter in question. Simply that some - of maybe all - of those beliefs are false.


      Your moral philosophy, however, allows for no objective foundation at all. We've all seen you attempt to dodge questions about what would be moral in a society that has different moral values than your pet moral hobbyhorses. We know that if you had any integrity you would answer that their moral values are just as true as your present ones. But you don't do that, you dodge and evade and try to shift the subject to Sparko's moral beliefs.
      ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

      Comment


      • Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
        Baloney. People have multiple 'objective' beliefs about all sorts of objective things - how much a particular cake weighs, for example - and science is replete with differing theories about objective things. None of that means that there is no real, objective truth about the matter in question. Simply that some - of maybe all - of those beliefs are false.


        Your moral philosophy, however, allows for no objective foundation at all. We've all seen you attempt to dodge questions about what would be moral in a society that has different moral values than your pet moral hobbyhorses. We know that if you had any integrity you would answer that their moral values are just as true as your present ones. But you don't do that, you dodge and evade and try to shift the subject to Sparko's moral beliefs.
        Human survival, that which is in the best interests of the survival of human beings and human society, is an objective moral foundation. That doesn't mean that the morals thereof have any real objective existence of there own.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
          Baloney. People have multiple 'objective' beliefs about all sorts of objective things - how much a particular cake weighs, for example - and science is replete with differing theories about objective things. None of that means that there is no real, objective truth about the matter in question. Simply that some - of maybe all - of those beliefs are false.

          We’re not talking about objective verifiable objects such as “cakes”, dummy. We are discussing “objective morality”, which is intangible and unverifiable. It is demonstrable that many societies and religions maintain an “objective morality” that has been adapted over time and/or contradicts the “objective morality” adhered to by other nations and religions. Always a problem when one has multiple ‘objective’ moralities.
          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
            We’re not talking about objective verifiable objects such as “cakes”, dummy. We are discussing “objective morality”, which is intangible and unverifiable. It is demonstrable that many societies and religions maintain an “objective morality” that has been adapted over time and/or contradicts the “objective morality” adhered to by other nations and religions. Always a problem when one has multiple ‘objective’ moralities.
            ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
              The argument is about the alleged existence of ‘objective morality’. The fact that you choose to believe it exists doesn’t make it real, any more than the “objective morality” as believed by Muslims makes it real.



              Well he did say to stone disobedient children, but it is YOU who said “Homosexuality is still immoral; we just don't stone them anymore”. And the argument remains. You believe morality is objective and "align" yourself "with God, the source of that morality" as in the Bible.. The problem that so do Muslims “align themselves” with their God, the source of their morality as contained in the Koran.

              Always a problem when one has multiple ‘objective’ moralities.
              There being an objective morality doesn't equate to everyone agreeing on it. People and even societies can get things wrong. Otherwise you wouldn't have such things as Nazi's gassing Jews in WW2.


              Again, fine with me if you want to claim there is no objective morality. It just means you can't complain about anyone or any other society doing something immoral, unless it was immoral under their own society's morals. You have no more right to impose your morality on them as they would on you.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                There being an objective morality doesn't equate to everyone agreeing on it.
                The problem for you is that are many “objective moralities” all of which claim to be the only true morality. But they can't all be true because they are contradictory. E.g. it is unlikely that you would agree with the objective values of Muslim suicide bombers.

                Again, fine with me if you want to claim there is no objective morality. It just means you can't complain about anyone or any other society doing something immoral, unless it was immoral under their own society's morals.
                Of course, I can. I can complain about any behavior, which is unacceptable to the social mores of our society, just as you can.
                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                  The problem for you is that are many “objective moralities” all of which claim to be the only true morality. But they can't all be true because they are contradictory.

                  .
                  Even if everyone in the world believed murdering your parents was a good and moral practice, it would still be immoral.

                  E.g. it is unlikely that you would agree with the objective values of Muslim suicide bombers
                  And under your view of morality, you can't claim that muslim suicide bombers are immoral.


                  Of course, I can. I can complain about any behavior, which is unacceptable to the social mores of our society, just as you can.
                  But if there are no actual objective right and wrong, your complaints are meaningless. You might as well complain that you think it is immoral for Chinese to use chopsticks.

                  There is no such thing as moral or immoral if there is no such thing as right and wrong. They are merely personal preferences. Like chopsticks.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    Even if everyone in the world believed murdering your parents was a good and moral practice, it would still be immoral.
                    Why would it still be immoral, simply because god says so?

                    And under your view of morality, you can't claim that muslim suicide bombers are immoral.
                    Yes we can claim that. And we actually have reason to claim so, whereas you only have "because god says so".


                    But if there are no actual objective right and wrong, your complaints are meaningless. You might as well complain that you think it is immoral for Chinese to use chopsticks.

                    There is no such thing as moral or immoral if there is no such thing as right and wrong. They are merely personal preferences. Like chopsticks.
                    Wrong, they are objective in the sense that they serve the best interests of human beings and human society whether we get it right or not. From your perspective, they are arbitrary, simply "because god says so."
                    Last edited by JimL; 07-02-2019, 10:46 AM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                      Why would it still be immoral, simply because god says so?
                      You have been smoking something after all, haven't you?



                      Yes we can claim that. And we actually have reason to claim so, whereas you only have "because god says so".
                      Why just because you say so?


                      Wrong, they are objective in the sense that they serve the best interests of human beings and human society whether we get it right or not. From your perspective, they are arbitrary, simply "because god says so."
                      You are appealing to an objective standard to justify your subjective morals? What a moron.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        Even if everyone in the world believed murdering your parents was a good and moral practice, it would still be immoral.
                        It is also highly unlikely that the moral code of any community would consider murdering parents was good.

                        And under your view of morality, you can't claim that muslim suicide bombers are immoral.
                        Of course, I can because it opposes the arbiters of my moral values, namely the community in which I live. The same applies to you.

                        But if there are no actual objective right and wrong, your complaints are meaningless. You might as well complain that you think it is immoral for Chinese to use chopsticks.
                        ALL your arguments are predicated on the notion of objective morality…YOUR objective morality, which is not the same as say, Islamic fundamentalist objective morality. You think yous is right, so do they. In truth neither is right in absolute, objective terms.

                        There is no such thing as moral or immoral if there is no such thing as right and wrong. They are merely personal preferences. Like chopsticks.
                        There is “right and wrong” ONLY according to the current values of our society and it is this that provides the sole basis of morality. Slavery, killing witches, subjugating women etc was once considered moral in our society. It is no longer because societal values have evolved and changed.
                        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                          It is also highly unlikely that the moral code of any community would consider murdering parents was good.
                          because there is an objective morality and we generally follow it.



                          Of course, I can because it opposes the arbiters of my moral values, namely the community in which I live. The same applies to you.
                          But your objections hold no more weight than complaining that someone likes to wear shorts and you don't think shorts are dignified. It's just your opinion.


                          ALL your arguments are predicated on the notion of objective morality…YOUR objective morality, which is not the same as say, Islamic fundamentalist objective morality. You think yous is right, so do they. In truth neither is right in absolute, objective terms.
                          You don't seem to understand what objective morality even means. There is only one. Not "my objective morality" and "their objective morality" - there is just one. And I might not get it right all the time, and you might not get it right all the time, but it's there none the less.
                          There is “right and wrong” ONLY according to the current values of our society and it is this that provides the sole basis of morality. Slavery, killing witches, subjugating women etc was once considered moral in our society. It is no longer because societal values have evolved and changed.
                          So do you think it was actually moral to burn witches back then? It must have been if morals are relative. So since they were acting morally according to their standards, you have no leg to stand on to claim they were wrong for burning witches. It must mean they were right for burning witches back then, even if we don't do it now. That is the result of your relative morality, Tassman.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            So do you think it was actually moral to burn witches back then? It must have been if morals are relative. So since they were acting morally according to their standards, you have no leg to stand on to claim they were wrong for burning witches. It must mean they were right for burning witches back then, even if we don't do it now. That is the result of your relative morality, Tassman.
                            The good old days...

                            witch-burning.jpg
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              You have been smoking something after all, haven't you?
                              Actually no, but you didn't answer the assertion. Why?

                              Why just because you say so?
                              No, I actually explained to you why. Sound reason!



                              You are appealing to an objective standard to justify your subjective morals? What a moron.
                              Wrong. If you were able to follow you would know that I have implied that morals are objective in the sense that they are in the best interests of human beings living together in community. In other words, unlike your notion that morals are the arbitrary, meaningless, laws of a god, my answer is that morals are based on reason.

                              Comment



                              • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                                Sound reason!
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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