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So what is this toxic masculinity thing anyhow?

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  • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
    Both sides make decisions, keeping each other informed and obtaining permission, one of the other equally. It’s a partnership, not “submission” on either side.
    It's not "submission" using your tortured definition, but if my wife wants to go to Chili's and I prefer Applebee's, I can "submit" to her will, and everybody is happy.

    I don't know why you have to make "submit" such a dirty word. (Well, I do, but it's nutty)
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      It's not "submission" using your tortured definition, but if my wife wants to go to Chili's and I prefer Applebee's, I can "submit" to her will, and everybody is happy.
      The Oxford definition of “submission” is ‘the action of accepting or yielding to a superior force or to the will or authority of another person’. It’s too strong a word to use when arriving at a decision to visit a specific restaurant.

      I don't know why you have to make "submit" such a dirty word. (Well, I do, but it's nutty)
      “Submission” is a word with a specific meaning. It’s not a “dirty word”, you are just using it inappropriately.
      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Tassmoron View Post
        Both sides make decisions, keeping each other informed and obtaining permission, one of the other equally. It’s a partnership, not “submission” on either side. The days of Patriarchy with the male controlling the purse-strings and making all the decisions are long-gone in Western society. Or should be.
        So you're saying that your wife DOES submit to you in certain matters? For shame. I never expected you to be so toxic. Or does she do whatever she wants regardless of what you might have to say about it?

        Go read Proverbs 31:10-31 if you think the Bible promotes "Patriarchy with the male controlling the purse-strings and making all the decisions". Just because the final authority rests with the man does not mean that he is to lord over the wife and oppress her. Paul's instruction to husbands is the exact opposite and would have been considered a radical departure from cultural norms at the time.
        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
        Than a fool in the eyes of God


        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
          So you're saying that your wife DOES submit to you in certain matters? For shame. I never expected you to be so toxic. Or does she do whatever she wants regardless of what you might have to say about it?

          Go read Proverbs 31:10-31 if you think the Bible promotes "Patriarchy with the male controlling the purse-strings and making all the decisions". Just because the final authority rests with the man does not mean that he is to lord over the wife and oppress her. Paul's instruction to husbands is the exact opposite and would have been considered a radical departure from cultural norms at the time.
          Yep, the whole point made throughout the bible is servant-leadership. Jesus came and served his followers. Even though they submitted to him as leader, what he did mostly was serve them and the church. Just like the bible says about the husbands.

          Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing[b] her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
            The Oxford definition of “submission”...
            How many times do you have to be told --- you don't take an "Oxford definition" of an English word translated from the Greek OUT OF CONTEXT as "gospel" to understand Scripture.

            At this point, I'm going to have to assume you're just being a ninny.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              Yep, the whole point made throughout the bible is servant-leadership....
              At this point, I'm pretty sure the boy is just ing.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                How many times do you have to be told --- you don't take an "Oxford definition" of an English word translated from the Greek OUT OF CONTEXT as "gospel" to understand Scripture.

                At this point, I'm going to have to assume you're just being a ninny.
                ScreenHunter_.jpg

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  [ATTACH=CONFIG]35208[/ATTACH]
                  Well, if the OXFORD dictionary says it.....
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    Yep, the whole point made throughout the bible is servant-leadership. Jesus came and served his followers. Even though they submitted to him as leader, what he did mostly was serve them and the church. Just like the bible says about the husbands.

                    Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing[b] her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church
                    Exactly.

                    The extended passage is introduced by Ephesians 5:21: "Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ."
                    It's a general instruction for all Christians to submit to one other.

                    Then it goes on to give some practical applications of that general principle: wives-and-husbands, parents-and-children, etc.
                    He also uses the example of the Church and Christ. Yes, the Church submits to Christ. But does that mean Christ sits around being served? No, Jesus said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. 26 It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, 27 and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.” (Matt 20:25-28)

                    It's both-and.
                    Yes, wives submit to your husbands AND husbands submit to your wives. ("Submit to one another") "each individual among you also is to love his own wife even as himself, and the wife must see to it that she respects her husband."

                    Originally posted by Charles View Post
                    Like I said earlier: Theology is often the art of making sure that the text means the opposite of the meaning of the words.
                    Is anyone saying that it means the opposite? Of course husbands and wives are to submit to one another. It's an application of verse 21.



                    [edited to add]
                    The passage continues applying the general rule to parents-and-children. It's not the same relationship as husbands-wife, but even there, are parents to sit around being served? No, mutually serve one another here too: "Fathers, do not exasperate your children; instead, bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord."

                    And then the same principle is even applied to masters and slaves!
                    "And masters, treat your slaves in the same way."

                    Think that through to it's logical conclusion.

                    "Slaves, obey your earthly masters"..."And masters, treat your slaves in the same way."
                    "...since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him."

                    Boom. I imagine Paul doing a mic drop there.
                    Paul isn't building up hierarchies. He's leveling them.
                    [/edited to add]
                    Last edited by Joel; 02-20-2019, 11:15 AM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Joel View Post
                      Exactly.

                      The extended passage is introduced by Ephesians 5:21: "Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ."
                      It's a general instruction for all Christians to submit to one other.

                      Then it goes on to give some practical applications of that general principle: wives-and-husbands, parents-and-children, etc.
                      He also uses the example of the Church and Christ. Yes, the Church submits to Christ. But does that mean Christ sits around being served? No, Jesus said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. 26 It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, 27 and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.” (Matt 20:25-28)

                      It's both-and.
                      Yes, wives submit to your husbands AND husbands submit to your wives. ("Submit to one another") "each individual among you also is to love his own wife even as himself, and the wife must see to it that she respects her husband."


                      Is anyone saying that it means the opposite? Of course husbands and wives are to submit to one another. It's an application of verse 21.
                      Go to your room, Joel. You are making FAR too much sense!

                      (and repeating what some of us have been saying all along)
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • I wish you could amen someone's post twice just so I could give Joel an additional amen for that edit.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          And behind every unsuccessful man is a strong woman saying "I knew he was a bum!"


                          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                          Than a fool in the eyes of God


                          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                            I wish you could amen someone's post twice just so I could give Joel an additional amen for that edit.
                            It's okay. We can just vicariously amen yours.
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                            sigpic
                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                              It's okay. We can just vicariously amen yours.
                              I can't help but feel like that is somehow stealing credit from Joel, but for some reason I have absolutely no problems with that. Keep the amens coming please.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Joel View Post
                                Exactly.

                                The extended passage is introduced by Ephesians 5:21: "Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ."
                                It's a general instruction for all Christians to submit to one other.

                                Then it goes on to give some practical applications of that general principle: wives-and-husbands, parents-and-children, etc.
                                He also uses the example of the Church and Christ. Yes, the Church submits to Christ. But does that mean Christ sits around being served? No, Jesus said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. 26 It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, 27 and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.” (Matt 20:25-28)

                                It's both-and.
                                Yes, wives submit to your husbands AND husbands submit to your wives. ("Submit to one another") "each individual among you also is to love his own wife even as himself, and the wife must see to it that she respects her husband."


                                Is anyone saying that it means the opposite? Of course husbands and wives are to submit to one another. It's an application of verse 21.
                                And yet among Evangelicals this seems to translate as a woman being created as a helper to her husband, the bearer of children, and keeper at home. Is this what you believe to be the divinely ordained sphere of dominion for a wife, i.e. keeping to the household and that which is connected with the home and children under the authority of her husband. This has been the traditional view in Patriarchal societies as we see depicted in the OT and creeping over into the NT, but our society has moved on since then; is this a 'bad thing' in your view? Are women not entitled to pursue productive, fulfilling careers, or is this just the man's divinely ordained sphere of dominion?
                                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                                Comment

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