So what is this toxic masculinity thing anyhow?

[Sparko]

Immorality is that which we define as evil, but it doesn't make the person himself insane or mentally ill.

What's left? sane and good? Do you think a pedophile is sane and good?

What else would a pedophile be? If he goes around having sex with children, and he is not insane, or evil, then why is he doing it? What other motivation is there for desiring to have sex with children.

You keep avoiding that question.

[JimL]

What's left? sane and good? Do you think a pedophile is sane and good?

What else would a pedophile be? If he goes around having sex with children, and he is not insane, or evil, then why is he doing it? What other motivation is there for desiring to have sex with children.

You keep avoiding that question.

Are you mentally ill, insane, or evil because you desire to steal or lie or whatever other wrongs you are guilty of?

[Tassman]

What's left? sane and good? Do you think a pedophile is sane and good?

Is an Evangelical enjoying porn online (and they do in disproportionately high numbers according to statistics) sane and good?

[Tassman]

And that is what my example showed was just plain wrong. If you have two people, both having desires and fantasies about having sex with children and one is distressed by it and goes to the doctor, he is considered mentally ill. Yet the second one who embraces his desires and fantasies and enjoys them yet still has not acted on them for whatever reason is not mentally ill.

That's just stupid Tass. The second guy is clearly MORE mentally ill than the first because the first one at least has the sense to know what he is thinking about is wrong and to seek help.

You are misrepresenting the argument. It consists of two components and you are disregarding the second of them, namely: “impairment of personal functioning”. I think we can agree that “embracing desires and fantasies” about pedophile activity constitutes “impairment of personal functioning” and embodies a high risk of being acted upon. Therefore it can be categorized as a mental illness.

[Terraceth]

All right, so I know this was from months ago, but I wanted to give a bit of an update to this particular section in my earlier post:

Another questionable quote is when it claims Martin Luther said "Women ... have but small and narrow chests, and broad hips, to the end that they should remain at home, sit still, keep house, and bear and bring up children." Where did he say this? It doesn't say. And a search for this online just turns up more people citing this quote (usually in the context of a list of controversial things Luther supposedly said), but no one actually saying where it was from. This of course doesn't necessarily mean it's a false quote, but a quote constantly being used without anyone saying where it was said is highly suspicious for being false.

Okay, so it turns out this one is an actual quote from Luther. The full version is "Men have broad and large chests, and small narrow hips, and more understanding than the women, who have but small and narrow chests, and broad hips, to the end they should remain at home, sit still, keep house, and bear and bring up children."

Of course, this was a minor portion of my post, so I do not feel anything else in my post is adversely affected by this, particularly as I noted it could have been a real quote. But I felt I should make a note of this, as I actually did find it.

However, a few points do at least partially mitigate this quote. That's because of where it's from, which is Table Talk. Table Talk is a collection of quotations from Martin Luther from his student's notes. These quotations were essentially statements he made in passing to them, often around the dinner table (hence "Table Talk"). The problem with using anything from Table Talk as a quotation from Martin Luther is severalfold.
1) As these are from the notes of his students, most likely these are not word-for-word statements but are instead paraphrases. While I fully expect the essence of his statements were kept, some level of finesse may have been lost in the process.
2) In Table Talks, the quotes are generally presented by themselves, with no indication as to what prompted them, what else was said, or anything else. What was the context of this remark? Was he representing someone else's views? Was he joking around? We do not know.
3) These were mostly offhand statements that Martin Luther made. Believe you me, I'm sure if someone wrote down things I said over the years, you'd find some pretty crazy quotes in there as well, especially if no context was offered.

Carry on!

[One Bad Pig]

Are you mentally ill, insane, or evil because you desire to steal or lie or whatever other wrongs you are guilty of?

My last statemnt appears to have been in error. Forgive me for assuming your argument was coherent.

[Cow Poke]

My last statement appears to have been in error. Forgive me for assuming your argument was coherent.

But you get points for trying.

[JimL]

My last statemnt appears to have been in error.

Par for the course, OBP.

[Cow Poke]

Par for the course, OBP.

Jim, the "last statement" to which OBP refers was the one where he was defending you....

I think what JimL is trying to say is that, as long as the thoughts are not acted on, no harm no foul.

He was being quite charitable about what he thought you intended to say, and you proved him wrong. That's nothing to gloat about.

[Sparko]

Are you mentally ill, insane, or evil because you desire to steal or lie or whatever other wrongs you are guilty of?

If I steal I could be doing it to

1. because I am starving
2. because I am evil (greedy, just enjoy stealing, etc)
3. because I have a mental disorder (Kleptomania)

So answer the question I asked you a dozen times now:

What motivations could a pedophile have other than being evil or a mental disorder?

[Sparko]

Is an Evangelical enjoying porn online (and they do in disproportionately high numbers according to statistics) sane and good?

no they are being sinful. Or they could have a mental disorder.

[Sparko]

You are misrepresenting the argument. It consists of two components and you are disregarding the second of them, namely: “impairment of personal functioning”. I think we can agree that “embracing desires and fantasies” about pedophile activity constitutes “impairment of personal functioning” and embodies a high risk of being acted upon. Therefore it can be categorized as a mental illness.

How does "embracing desires and fantasies about pedophilia" constitute impairment of personal functioning?

If you want to go with that definition then you have just tanked your entire claim that pedophilia is only a mental disorder if it causes distress or personal impairment, because it always would cause that so it would always be a mental disorder.

Nice job of destroying your own claim.

[Tassman]

How does "embracing desires and fantasies about pedophilia" constitute impairment of personal functioning?

If you want to go with that definition then you have just tanked your entire claim that pedophilia is only a mental disorder if it causes distress or personal impairment, because it always would cause that so it would always be a mental disorder.

No, not just personal impairment, “impairment of personal functioning”. This embodies a high risk of being acted upon. Therefore, it can be categorized as a mental illness.

[Sparko]

No, not just personal impairment, “impairment of personal functioning”. This embodies a high risk of being acted upon. Therefore, it can be categorized as a mental illness.

again, with that definition then pedophilia is always a mental illness, which defeats your initial objection to us claiming that it is such. You just defeated your own argument.

Can you give me an example of when pedophilia or desires of such is NOT a mental illness?

[One Bad Pig]

again, with that definition then pedophilia is always a mental illness, which defeats your initial objection to us claiming that it is such. You just defeated your own argument.

Can you give me an example of when pedophilia or desires of such is NOT a mental illness?

It's just not sporting to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed man, Sparko.