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So what is this toxic masculinity thing anyhow?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by TheWall View Post
    But that is just the thing. My great grandfather, my grandfather, several of my friends taught me that.
    Sure, the notion of how men 'should' behave is cultural, and so your family can have a view of the 'correct' behavior for men that differs to that held by other families elsewhere.

    If anything jerks like that have been the villians in most every story I know of. Examples would include.
    Biff Tannen
    Gideon Graves
    Naraku
    Elder Toguro
    Marlon Brando in the film A streetcar named desire.
    Right. So, loosely speaking, you're already a liberal who already agrees that toxic masculinity where it exists is problematic.

    I do think though that men are not in and of just being male bad.
    Nobody's saying they are. A few conservatives are trying to mislead you into thinking liberals are saying men are bad (see my above response to Rogue). They aren't. I do think the extent to which conservatives in the US seem to willfully misrepresent the views of liberals to try to imply liberals are against men or white people or the family, is problematic and speaks to a culture of brainwashing and deception among conservatives.
    Last edited by Starlight; 01-22-2019, 07:19 PM.
    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Starlight View Post
      Nobody is saying masculinity in and of itself is toxic. That's silly.
      Tell that to folks like feminist writer and activist John Stoltenberg who believes that all masculinity is toxic and that society needs to give up manhood for good if we want to live morally sound and love-filled lives.

      And Lisa Wade, a feminist professor at Occidental College, who rejects the term "toxic masculinity" because she says that masculinity itself is the problem and needs to be renounced and denounced.

      And activist Tony Porter, founder of A Call to Men, is telling men don't "act like a man" which certainly implies that masculinity in and by itself is toxic.

      You can go back to statements by radical feminist icon Marilyn French when she declared that "all men are rapists, and that's all they are." to see this sort of thinking.

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
        Tell that to folks like feminist writer and activist John Stoltenberg who believes that all masculinity is toxic and that society needs to give up manhood for good if we want to live morally sound and love-filled lives.

        And Lisa Wade, a feminist professor at Occidental College, who rejects the term "toxic masculinity" because she says that masculinity itself is the problem and needs to be renounced and denounced.

        And activist Tony Porter, founder of A Call to Men, is telling men don't "act like a man" which certainly implies that masculinity in and by itself is toxic.

        You can go back to statements by radical feminist icon Marilyn French when she declared that "all men are rapists, and that's all they are." to see this sort of thinking.
        Even if you weren't grossly misportraying their views, which you seem to be, extreme exceptions aren't relevant to establishing what is the general view. (I started fact-checking your post in reverse order, and looked up your Marilyn French quote... it's not a quote from her, it's a quote by a fictional character in a 1977 novel she wrote. At which point I just gave up checking your claims in disgust and assumed you're completely full of it as per usual - your signature of TWeb's biggest liar is well-earned.)

        It's pretty pathetic the extent to which you and other posters here seem to see the need to really really scrape the barrel in order to find some sort of bizarre or far-out views that are not at all in any way representative of normal liberal views. You lose so badly and so hard against anything resembling any normal liberal view that you're forced to construct such an absurdly ridiculous straw man in order for your own ideas to even stand a chance by comparison. You can't argue against real people's views so you have to pretend characters in novels represent the true liberal views.

        Imagine if I could combine together whatever extremist statements I felt like by any evangelical preachers ever (better yet if I'm allowed to attribute to them anything any said by any character in any novel they ever wrote), and declare that the grand sum of the ones I personally chose to select, was Evangelicalism and what Evangelicals believed. I could have an absolute field day. Evangelicalism could then be anything I felt like, because I'd be able to find someone somewhere who'd happened to say whatever I felt like claiming Evangelicals believed.

        Of course, doing such would be pathetic and disingenuous. So please stop doing the same with liberal views, you just make yourself look like a conman. In actual reality the most extreme statements of the most extreme people are not particularly interesting nor at all relevant in determining what the majority of the group think and believe. The discussion about Toxic Masculinity in this thread is occurring in the context of present day US liberal views such as expressed in the recent Gillette ad. In this context its appropriate to talk about what liberals in general today are saying and advocating - it is not appropriate to go hunting for really obscure quotes from extremists more than 40 years ago as you and Sparko have both disingenuously done. Sparko even managed to meme a quote from 1969 in his desperate barrel-scraping attempt, that seems to be too old and too obscure for the internet to be able to provide me any sort of actual context for it, try as I might to find the original article.

        At any rate, can we cease with the "I managed to find some really obscure statement by an obscure person that says X, therefore liberals believe X" garbage? It doesn't make for interesting discussion. If you want to argue against things that 99.99% of liberals today would also side with you against, that's not interesting.
        "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
        "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
        "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

        Comment


        • #64
          I find Starlight's femininity to be toxic.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Starlight View Post
            Even if you weren't grossly misportraying their views, which you seem to be, extreme exceptions aren't relevant to establishing what is the general view. (I started fact-checking your post in reverse order, and looked up your Marilyn French quote... it's not a quote from her, it's a quote by a fictional character in a 1977 novel she wrote. At which point I just gave up checking your claims in disgust and assumed you're completely full of it as per usual - your signature of TWeb's biggest liar is well-earned.)
            And which other feminists praised her for and during interviews she acknowledged largely represented her view.

            And she was hardly the only one expressing that view. For instance, author and activist Erin Pizzy, who set up the first women’s shelter ever in England in 1971, recalls the reaction feminists had when she dared to suggest in her book Prone to Violence (1982) that women batter too. She said she was met “with a solid wall of feminist demonstrators. ‘ALL MEN ARE RAPISTS. ALL MEN ARE BATTERERS,’ read the placards.

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • #66
              Interesting...

              Researchers reveal that some men turn to homophobia to reassert their masculinity

              Before the feminist revolution in the late 1960s, men largely built their masculinity on traits that opposed those assigned to women. Since then, society has been moving more and more towards gender equality, and men can no longer rely on this anti-feminine norm. What are the effects of this shift on masculinity affirmation? Researchers at the University of Geneva (UNIGE), Switzerland, have revealed that some men assert their manhood by stressing their heterosexuality, in order to compensate for this feminization of men. This move marks a clear rejection of homosexuality, seen as the personification of the feminine man. The UNIGE results, published in the journal Sex Roles, reflect the difficulties Western societies have in granting homosexuals the same rights as heterosexuals, with some men leaning on homophobia to help them find their place in an increasingly egalitarian society.

              https://www.news-medical.net/news/20...sculinity.aspx
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                And which other feminists praised her for and during interviews she acknowledged largely represented her view.

                And she was hardly the only one expressing that view. For instance, author and activist Erin Pizzy, who set up the first women’s shelter ever in England in 1971, recalls the reaction feminists had when she dared to suggest in her book Prone to Violence (1982) that women batter too. She said she was met “with a solid wall of feminist demonstrators. ‘ALL MEN ARE RAPISTS. ALL MEN ARE BATTERERS,’ read the placards.
                If you want to debate radical feminists of the 1970s and early 1980s (), and/or things said by fictional characters in their novels () and/or things you allege someone in the 80s once wrote on a protest placard (), perhaps you should start a thread on that. I suspect no one would be interested in participating in said thread.

                I personally have never read any works by radical feminists from before I was born, as their views don't interest me.
                "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                  If you want to debate radical feminists of the 1970s and early 1980s (), and/or things said by fictional characters in their novels () and/or things you allege someone in the 80s once wrote on a protest placard (), perhaps you should start a thread on that. I suspect no one would be interested in participating in said thread.

                  I personally have never read any works by radical feminists from before I was born, as their views don't interest me.
                  Apparently, Mr PhD doesn’t understand that the feminist from the 70’s and 80’s influenced today’s feminist.
                  "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                  GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    You know what's truly toxic: using isolated examples of bad behavior to impugn 50% of the population.
                    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                    Than a fool in the eyes of God


                    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                      You know what's truly toxic: using isolated examples of bad behavior to impugn 50% of the population.
                      Yep, exactly, and its why I'm critiquing Rogue and Sparko for finding isolated extreme examples from the 60s-80s in their efforts to impugn liberals today.
                      "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                      "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                      "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                        You know what's truly toxic: using isolated examples of bad behavior to impugn 50% of the population.
                        So what you are saying is that "you are truly toxic?"

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by JimL View Post
                          So what you are saying is that "you are truly toxic?"
                          Sleeping on the floor again?
                          "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                          GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by JimLamebrain View Post
                            So what you are saying is that "you are truly toxic?"
                            Looks like Jimmy is talking to himself again.
                            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                            Than a fool in the eyes of God


                            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                              Yep, exactly, and its why I'm critiquing Rogue and Sparko for finding isolated extreme examples from the 60s-80s in their efforts to impugn liberals today.
                              I know you like to tell yourself and everyone else that you're the smartest person in the room (just who are you trying to convince any way? Are you really that insecure?), but I was responding to one of your sweeping and as usual false assertions, in this particular case that "Nobody is saying masculinity in and of itself is toxic. That's silly."

                              Now that even you, in your usually petulant manner, have acknowledged that you were, as usual, wrong, that there really are folks out there proclaiming that masculinity is in and of itself toxic, we can move on.

                              Oh, in the words of the old TV detective Columbo, "just one more thing..." What Stoltenberg, Wade and Porter (three out of the four examples I initially cited) said have been in the last couple of years not from, as you erroneously blather, "from the 60s-80s." So if you're going to criticize the very least you could do is get your facts right.

                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                I know you like to tell yourself and everyone else that you're the smartest person in the room (just who are you trying to convince any way? Are you really that insecure?), but I was responding to one of your sweeping and as usual false assertions, in this particular case that "Nobody is saying masculinity in and of itself is toxic. That's silly."

                                Now that even you, in your usually petulant manner, have acknowledged that you were, as usual, wrong, that there really are folks out there proclaiming that masculinity is in and of itself toxic, we can move on.

                                Oh, in the words of the old TV detective Columbo, "just one more thing..." What Stoltenberg, Wade and Porter (three out of the four examples I initially cited) said have been in the last couple of years not from, as you erroneously blather, "from the 60s-80s." So if you're going to criticize the very least you could do is get your facts right.
                                You know the left doesn't care about facts they only care about what ever they can use to continue their bigoted false narrative that all christian white males are toxic

                                Comment

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