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Thread: So what is this toxic masculinity thing anyhow?

  1. #811
    God, family, chicken! Bill the Cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    He's used to it.
    It's as frequent as a super blood wolf corn moon eclipse.


    Well no they were not "more favorable to Mary's claim to the British throne".
    Yes they were. As the great-granddaughter of King Henry VII, Mary had a strong claim to the English throne. Her claim was so strong that her son James went on to become king of both Scotland and England.

    Mary, queen of Scots had no claim to the English throne whatsoever.


    Source: https://www.royal.uk/mary-queen-scots-r1542-1567


    Her claims to the throne of England were almost as strong as her claims to the Scottish throne.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Scotland and England were separate monarchies. They were not united under one monarch until her son, James VI of Scotland became James I of England having inherited both crowns (i.e. Mary's and Elizabeth's) upon the death of Elizabeth I.
    She was the great-granddaughter of Henry VII, thus in line for the throne of England.

    But this has little to do with the claim that, female monarchs aside, women had very little status in Western society until the comparatively recent women's movement.
    you keep believing that...


    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals --- Manya the Holy Szin --- The Quintara Marathon ---

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  2. #812
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    Obviously! Or did society get it terribly wrong for all that time?
    Get what wrong Tass? Are not males dominate over females in our closet primate cousins? So we are just following our genetic make up...

    Male chimpanzees that wage a campaign of sustained aggression against females sire more offspring than their less violent counterparts, new research finds.

    The results suggest that such nasty behavior from males evolved because it gave the meanest males a reproductive advantage, said study co-author Ian Gilby, a primatologist at Arizona State University in Phoenix.

    This chimpanzee behavior could also provide some insight into the roots of sexual aggression in men.

    "It is possible that in our early ancestors there may have been an adaptive value to male aggression against females," Gilby said.
    Sex, chimpanzee style

    The battle of the sexes is supercharged in the chimpanzee world. Males charge at females, rip out their hair and kick, slap or beat them. Males often kill the babies of rivals to increase the availability of females to mate again.

    "Male chimpanzees can be really horrible to females," Gilby told Live Science.

    To deal with this behavior, female chimpanzees play a delicate balancing act. They mate with almost all the males in a troop to create uncertainty as to who's the father of the offspring. At the same time, females want to mate with the highest-quality males when they are at their most fertile, upping the chances of producing fit offspring, Gilby said.

    Sustained aggression

    From an evolutionary perspective, coercive sex in the animal kingdom may be advantageous because it allows otherwise undesirable males some chance of passing on their genes.

    https://www.livescience.com/48743-ag...duce-more.html
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  3. #813
    What's that? lilpixieofterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Meh....



    But things are about to go screwy....



    And there ya have it!



    You would have to demonstrate that PRIOR to Christianity, women had equality with men.

    I'll wait.
    Tazzy just makes vague generalities because more details would destroy his position. Women under the Greeks, Romans, Chinese, etc didn’t really have much in terms of rights and had it worse, in many ways, than women had in Christian Europe even pre women’s rights era.
    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
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  4. #814
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
    Tazzy just makes vague generalities because more details would destroy his position. Women under the Greeks, Romans, Chinese, etc didn’t really have much in terms of rights and had it worse, in many ways, than women had in Christian Europe even pre women’s rights era.
    On Paul's missionary journeys, look how many times Luke refers to the women of substance, like Lydia, and the women of means in Athens and other places. There was no attempt or even hint at subjugating them. It was proudly pointed out that not just the men, but the "chief women" believed.

    Tassy would have to show that the "male dominated society" didn't exist PRIOR to Christianity, and he can't do that.

  5. #815
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    It is a “specific” fact that Christianity has been the dominant religion in the western hemisphere for nearly 2,000 years
    Uh, I think Christianity didn't become the dominant religion in the western hemisphere until the Spanish conquests of the 1500s. I assume you meant to refer to Western Civilization (Europeans).

    Tabibito pointed out the slowness of Christianity in Britain.
    Also it took centuries for Christianity to become adopted by the Romans. But then it wasn't long after that before Rome fell to pagan Germanic tribes that battled each other in Europe for centuries. It took them a while to adopt Christianity. When the Muslims arose in the 600s, they took the whole Spanish peninsula and held it for centuries, and the Germanic kingdoms were mainly concerned with how to not be conquered by the Muslims.

    and that consequently its laws were based upon the values of its dominant religion,
    That's not necessarily the case. History and politics are a lot more complicated than that.
    Monarchs typically passed laws and did other things with the intent of benefiting themselves.

    Or consider when the noblemen forced King John to sign the Magna Carta. This conflicted with John's laws and values. So then there wasn't a direct mapping from Christian values to the laws.

    ...including the subjugation of women.
    When people are asking you for citations, they are wanting you to back up this point. What specific laws are you referring to: not in general but specifically what law, when was it passed, by whom, and why it was passed. E.g., there was no men-may-vote-and-women-may-not-democracy for 2,000 years. Democratic republics haven't been prevalent until very recently. So a women-can't-vote law was a recent, modern, temporary thing, as people were trying to figure out how to do this democratic-republic thing.

  6. #816
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill the Cat View Post


    Yes they were. As the great-granddaughter of King Henry VII, Mary had a strong claim to the English throne. Her claim was so strong that her son James went on to become king of both Scotland and England.
    Mary had no valid claim to the English throne while the Tudor monarchy was still viable. James succeeded Elizabeth I only because she was childless, through his great-grandmother Margaret Tudor, who was Henry VIII's elder sister. If Elisabeth had had a child, that child would have succeeded her (short of revolution) not James.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  7. #817
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post

    Tassy would have to show that the "male dominated society" didn't exist PRIOR to Christianity, and he can't do that.
    That’s not the argument. The argument is that Christianity has historically reflected the moral values of the day. Hence, for most of its history, the Christian attitude towards women was an extension of Patriarchal society as found in the Old Testament.

    E.g. Titus 2:3-5: “…encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands…”.

    Only in recent times, with the attitude towards the role of women in society changing, has the slew of NT passages on the subjugation of women been interpreted in such a way as to promote women's equality.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  8. #818
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Interesting - Tassman is COMPLAINING that the Church has most consistently been conformed to the world instead of being transformed by the renewing of the mind.

    That might make a good argument in support of the idea that Christians have never had much control over the churches.
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

  9. #819
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Get what wrong Tass? Are not males dominate over females in our closet primate cousins? So we are just following our genetic make up...
    Indeed. But, unlike our primate cousins, the human primate has higher intelligence and can (and demonstrably has done so) modified its more primitive instincts. Although Trump is a bit of a throw-back.

    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    Interesting - Tassman is COMPLAINING that the Church has most consistently been conformed to the world instead of being transformed by the renewing of the mind.

    That might make a good argument in support of the idea that Christians have never had much control over the churches.
    Tassman (I'm actually here BTW) is not "COMPLAINING", he's merely noting that human morality is based upon the social mores of the day. And that this also applies to the interpretation of scripture
    Last edited by Tassman; 03-14-2019 at 09:59 PM.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  10. #820
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    Indeed. But, unlike our primate cousins, the human primate has higher intelligence and can (and demonstrably has done so) modified its more primitive instincts. Although Trump is a bit of a throw-back.



    Tassman (I'm actually here BTW) is not "COMPLAINING", he's merely noting that human morality is based upon the social mores of the day. And that this also applies to the interpretation of scripture
    The realities are
    1/ The (monolithic) churches have been, since circa 300AD, political animals. As such, they do what they can to curry favour with the political heavy-weights of the time.
    2/ Where they have been influential, the (monolithic) churches have been extended favour by the political heavyweights of the time as an avenue of military and political advantage.
    3/ The mutual back-scratching leads to syncretism in both the theology and practice of the churches; with corresponding syncretism among the political authorities.

    The Anglican church acknowledged these realities with its foundation under Elizabeth I (by then, the influence of Henry VIII had been all but obliterated through Mary's reign) and deliberately undertook a course of appeasement of factional interests in the interests of social harmony - doctrine essentially took a poor third place to the political and social interests of the time.

    Christians have consistently been at odds with both general society and church society, often vocally. "Our own" John Brown-Gribble being a case in point - vilified and slandered by all four estates for his adherence to Christian principles.
    Last edited by tabibito; 03-15-2019 at 12:47 AM.
    και εκζητησατε με και ευρησετε με οτι ζητησετε με εν ολη καρδία υμων

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