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Thread: So what is this toxic masculinity thing anyhow?

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    tWebber TheWall's Avatar
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    So what is this toxic masculinity thing anyhow?

    If I enjoy things like Hellboy or Go Nagai does that make me toxic? What about Mad Max? What is this toxin anyway?

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    tWebber Starlight's Avatar
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    'Toxic masculinity' are behaviors that are harmful yet are promoted by or excused by our culture's idea of how "real men" behave.

    So if you think of the Edited by a Moderator jerk at the high-school, what harms might he do as he aims to behave like an 'alpha male'? Pinch girls' butts, wolf-whistle at them, perhaps tell some they're too fat? Beat up the smallest or most effeminate boys for not being masculine-enough, while calling them 'gay'? Get drunk and beat up his girlfriend of the day? View himself as smarter than all the girls because he's a guy, regardless of however dumb he might be and however much he spends time in the gym working on his muscles rather than the library working on his brain? Views girls as sex objects to be conquered? Lack the ability to empathize with others, or care about their feelings, or express his own feelings with anything more than a grunt, and in fact views the entire category of 'feelings' as effeminate and unmanly?

    i.e. All the jerk behavior that, when someone complains about it, so often gets swept under the rug of "well, boys will be boys". And which the boys and men who are acting like that, rather than feeling bad about who they're harming, instead think of themselves as acting 'manly' and living up to social goals and stereotypes about how they should act.

    The concern about toxic masculinity is about taking a step back and realizing that our society has certain sets of ideas about what it means to be a "real man" or an "alpha-male" that we push onto men in general through idealization of stereotypes and through peer pressure, but that actually some of these behaviors are pretty nasty and jerkish and harmful. It turns out that girls generally don't like being wolf whistled at, the small or effeminate or gay or nerd guys don't like being bullied and beaten up at school by jocks, girls don't like to be condescendingly treated as idiots by guys, drunken violence hurts people both in bar fights between guys and domestic violence against women, and women in general don't like being treated as mere sex objects.

    Personally I find the whole idea that our culture has the particular concepts of masculinity that it does to be somewhat amusing (other cultures now and in the past have had different concepts) and I find the whole notion that these are projected onto society through peer pressure and other social indoctrination to be amusing too. But those concerned about 'toxic masculinity' generally don't go quite as far as me with regard to questioning the whole idea of there being a cultural notion of masculinity and asking what useful purpose that actually serves, but rather they are generally focused on altering it to smooth off the nasty jerk edges of it and trying to make sure that people don't grow up with the idea that being a "real man" means being an absolute jerk towards both women and towards any guys not deemed to be 'manly' enough, and trying to work toward less harmful cultural ideas of masculinity. You could view it as trying to make our culture's notion of ideal male behavior a bit more loving and Christ-like, if you wanted to put a religious spin on it.
    Last edited by The Melody Maker; 01-16-2019 at 08:56 PM. Reason: Inappropriate language

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    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    In many cases it is women telling men how to be a man. Imagine the uproar if men told women how to be a woman.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" -- starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starlight View Post
    'Toxic masculinity' are behaviors that are harmful yet are promoted by or excused by our culture's idea of how "real men" behave.

    So if you think of the Edited by a Moderator at the high-school, what harms might he do as he aims to behave like an 'alpha male'? Pinch girls' butts, wolf-whistle at them, perhaps tell some they're too fat? Beat up the smallest or most effeminate boys for not being masculine-enough, while calling them 'gay'? Get drunk and beat up his girlfriend of the day? View himself as smarter than all the girls because he's a guy, regardless of however dumb he might be and however much he spends time in the gym working on his muscles rather than the library working on his brain? Views girls as sex objects to be conquered? Lack the ability to empathize with others, or care about their feelings, or express his own feelings with anything more than a grunt, and in fact views the entire category of 'feelings' as effeminate and unmanly?

    i.e. All the jerk behavior that, when someone complains about it, so often gets swept under the rug of "well, boys will be boys". And which the boys and men who are acting like that, rather than feeling bad about who they're harming, instead think of themselves as acting 'manly' and living up to social goals and stereotypes about how they should act.

    The concern about toxic masculinity is about taking a step back and realizing that our society has certain sets of ideas about what it means to be a "real man" or an "alpha-male" that we push onto men in general through idealization of stereotypes and through peer pressure, but that actually some of these behaviors are pretty nasty and jerkish and harmful. It turns out that girls generally don't like being wolf whistled at, the small or effeminate or gay or nerd guys don't like being bullied and beaten up at school by jocks, girls don't like to be condescendingly treated as idiots by guys, drunken violence hurts people both in bar fights between guys and domestic violence against women, and women in general don't like being treated as mere sex objects.

    Personally I find the whole idea that our culture has the particular concepts of masculinity that it does to be somewhat amusing (other cultures now and in the past have had different concepts) and I find the whole notion that these are projected onto society through peer pressure and other social indoctrination to be amusing too. But those concerned about 'toxic masculinity' generally don't go quite as far as me with regard to questioning the whole idea of there being a cultural notion of masculinity and asking what useful purpose that actually serves, but rather they are generally focused on altering it to smooth off the nasty jerk edges of it and trying to make sure that people don't grow up with the idea that being a "real man" means being an absolute jerk towards both women and towards any guys not deemed to be 'manly' enough, and trying to work toward less harmful cultural ideas of masculinity. You could view it as trying to make our culture's notion of ideal male behavior a bit more loving and Christ-like, if you wanted to put a religious spin on it.
    I don't think you have to worry about anyone accusing you of being a traditional alpha male or behaving like a real man. You are safe.
    Last edited by The Melody Maker; 01-16-2019 at 08:57 PM. Reason: Inappropriate language in quoted post

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    In many cases it is women telling men how to be a man. Imagine the uproar if men told women how to be a woman.
    Basically it is just the same old liberal trope of accusing one group of victimizing another group so they can play the victim and denigrate the first group while virtue signalling how "woke" they are. It is just bigotry at it's core.

    Feminists don't like men being men, so they have to accuse all men of being the same as the worst of men are. They associate traits like bullying, sexual harrassment, rape, and violence as being normal traits of all men, then calling it "Toxic" and trying to emasculate men.

  6. Amen Bill the Cat, RumTumTugger amen'd this post.
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    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    I don't think you have to worry about anyone accusing you of being a traditional alpha male or behaving like a real man. You are safe.
    I think Gillette might have introduced a new razor for star and zis ilk



    It's the wokest razor evar!

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" -- starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)

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    tWebber TheWall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starlight View Post
    'Toxic masculinity' are behaviors that are harmful yet are promoted by or excused by our culture's idea of how "real men" behave.

    So if you think of the Edited by a Moderator jerk at the high-school, what harms might he do as he aims to behave like an 'alpha male'? Pinch girls' butts, wolf-whistle at them, perhaps tell some they're too fat? Beat up the smallest or most effeminate boys for not being masculine-enough, while calling them 'gay'? Get drunk and beat up his girlfriend of the day? View himself as smarter than all the girls because he's a guy, regardless of however dumb he might be and however much he spends time in the gym working on his muscles rather than the library working on his brain? Views girls as sex objects to be conquered? Lack the ability to empathize with others, or care about their feelings, or express his own feelings with anything more than a grunt, and in fact views the entire category of 'feelings' as effeminate and unmanly?

    i.e. All the jerk behavior that, when someone complains about it, so often gets swept under the rug of "well, boys will be boys". And which the boys and men who are acting like that, rather than feeling bad about who they're harming, instead think of themselves as acting 'manly' and living up to social goals and stereotypes about how they should act.

    The concern about toxic masculinity is about taking a step back and realizing that our society has certain sets of ideas about what it means to be a "real man" or an "alpha-male" that we push onto men in general through idealization of stereotypes and through peer pressure, but that actually some of these behaviors are pretty nasty and jerkish and harmful. It turns out that girls generally don't like being wolf whistled at, the small or effeminate or gay or nerd guys don't like being bullied and beaten up at school by jocks, girls don't like to be condescendingly treated as idiots by guys, drunken violence hurts people both in bar fights between guys and domestic violence against women, and women in general don't like being treated as mere sex objects.

    Personally I find the whole idea that our culture has the particular concepts of masculinity that it does to be somewhat amusing (other cultures now and in the past have had different concepts) and I find the whole notion that these are projected onto society through peer pressure and other social indoctrination to be amusing too. But those concerned about 'toxic masculinity' generally don't go quite as far as me with regard to questioning the whole idea of there being a cultural notion of masculinity and asking what useful purpose that actually serves, but rather they are generally focused on altering it to smooth off the nasty jerk edges of it and trying to make sure that people don't grow up with the idea that being a "real man" means being an absolute jerk towards both women and towards any guys not deemed to be 'manly' enough, and trying to work toward less harmful cultural ideas of masculinity. You could view it as trying to make our culture's notion of ideal male behavior a bit more loving and Christ-like, if you wanted to put a religious spin on it.
    Growing up I was taught acting like that was the opposite of what men should do. I dont think those traits are necessarily masculine.
    Last edited by The Melody Maker; 01-16-2019 at 08:58 PM. Reason: Inappropriate language in quoted post

  9. Amen RumTumTugger, Joel amen'd this post.
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    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starlight View Post
    'Toxic masculinity' are behaviors that are harmful yet are promoted by or excused by our culture's idea of how "real men" behave.
    Well we have to attract the ladies. But as far as male dominance and aggressiveness we see that in our closest primates, so it is more of biology driving culture, than the other way around.

    The Allure of Aggressive Men
    A new study illuminates why women can find combativeness attractive.


    https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...aggressive-men


    Women show sexual preference for tall, dominant men

    http://theconversation.com/women-sho...evitable-98159
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    i think gillette might have introduced a new razor for star and zis ilk



    it's the wokest razor evar!
    ouch!
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    To feminists, even doing things like holding a door open for a woman, or allowing a woman to enter first is "toxic masculinity"

  13. Amen Bill the Cat, RumTumTugger, JohnHermes amen'd this post.

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