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Thread: So what is this toxic masculinity thing anyhow?

  1. #1281
    tWebber alaskazimm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    And what about medical care? It's up to the parents to provide consent on the child's behalf.
    Kind of. When I was on the ambulance crew, when we worked on a child with no care giver around we did so under implied consent. That is by law we could treat a child without parental consent on the assumption that any reasonable parent would want their child treated. I would assume hosptial ERs would work under the same rules.

  2. #1282
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Of course all this begs the question. What if the adult with the "atypical sexual interest" is not unscrupulous and does not use trickery or deceit?
    Children, by definition, are not sufficiently mature to proved informed consent in such circumstances.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  3. #1283
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    And yet we have a basis for morality and you don't.
    Your basis for morality is exactly the same as for everyone else. It’s just that yours dates back to the subjective morality of a previous Age...the tribal era to be precise...and requires reinterpretation and adaptation to conform to current moral values, e.g. the role of women in society.

    So your whining about "informed consent" and whether pedophilia is immoral is nothing but your personal opinion, based on your preferences and has no authority on anyone else.
    Incorrect. They have the authority of the current social mores…as ‘moral’ values always have.

    If a Pedophile decides that informed consent is not needed and that having sex with children is OK, then there is nothing objectively wrong with it. It is just his preferences vs yours.
    No, it’s his preference vs that of current social values which have the force of Law to ensure compliance.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  4. #1284
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassmoron View Post
    Children, by definition, are not sufficiently mature to proved informed consent in such circumstances.
    According to current legal definition, yes... but laws can be changed, and without a solid, objective basis for moral thought, there's nothing to stop society from changing laws on a cultural whim. As Jimmy argued, "We evolve, we learn, we change our views."
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  5. #1285
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    At whatever age society and the law decide, apparently. As Jimmy said, "We evolve, we learn, we change our views."
    And he has also argued defending NAMBLA's challenge to age of consent laws.
    --- this space intentionally left blank ---

  6. #1286
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    Your basis for morality is exactly the same as for everyone else. It’s just that yours dates back to the subjective morality of a previous Age...the tribal era to be precise...
    According to the speculations of the History of Religions school, yes. Of course, they agree with your a priori belief that God is a fiction, so you uncritically espouse their views.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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  7. #1287
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    According to current legal definition, yes... but laws can be changed,
    Certainly. Just as laws repealing the abolition of slavery or a return to the discrimination of the Jim Crow era (both of which were supported scripturally by Baptists in the Deep South) could be overturned. But it’s highly unlikely.

    and without a solid, objective basis for moral thought, there's nothing to stop society from changing laws on a cultural whim. As Jimmy argued, "We evolve, we learn, we change our views."
    You witter on about “a solid, objective basis for moral thought”, but the origin of the biblical laws was no different than how society arrives at its moral values today. The only difference is that they were ascribed to a deity back then. But, there’s no good reason to think they were of divine origin. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights is much more appropriate to today than the primitive values of the tribal era from which Christianity derives.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  8. #1288
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassmoron View Post
    Certainly. Just as laws repealing the abolition of slavery or a return to the discrimination of the Jim Crow era (both of which were supported scripturally by Baptists in the Deep South) could be overturned. But it’s highly unlikely.
    People used to say the same thing about the legalization of homosexuality, and they were just as convinced as you that society would always have the good sense to never accept something so obviously perverse. But here we are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tassmoron View Post
    You witter on about “a solid, objective basis for moral thought”, but the origin of the biblical laws was no different than how society arrives at its moral values today. The only difference is that they were ascribed to a deity back then. But, there’s no good reason to think they were of divine origin. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights is much more appropriate to today than the primitive values of the tribal era from which Christianity derives.
    In other words, you essentially concede the point that secular society has no moral grounding that would allow it to definitively condemn something like pedophilia, and that if cultural values "evolve" sufficiently then you will happily defend the pedophile just as readily as you defend the homosexual.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  9. #1289
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    People used to say the same thing about the legalization of homosexuality, and they were just as convinced as you that society would always have the good sense to never accept something so obviously perverse. But here we are.
    The difference between homosexuality and pedophilia (or rape, or slavery or Jim Crow discrimination etc) is that relations between same-sex couples is by mutual consent, i.e. there are no victims.

    In other words, you essentially concede the point that secular society has no moral grounding that would allow it to definitively condemn something like pedophilia, and that if cultural values "evolve" sufficiently then you will happily defend the pedophile just as readily as you defend the homosexual.
    I'm conceding nothing of the sort. Morality all comes from the same place, namely the community values of the day. Whether attributed to a deity as the source or recognizing the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as the source makes no difference. They ALL originated via man in community.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  10. Amen JimL amen'd this post.
  11. #1290
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassmoron View Post
    The difference between homosexuality and pedophilia (or rape, or slavery or Jim Crow discrimination etc) is that relations between same-sex couples is by mutual consent, i.e. there are no victims.
    We've been over this already, this is a legal objection and not a moral one. Simply change the law, and this objection disappears.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tassmoron View Post
    I'm conceding nothing of the sort. Morality all comes from the same place, namely the community values of the day. Whether attributed to a deity as the source or recognizing the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as the source makes no difference. They ALL originated via man in community.
    Right, and if the "community" changes its mind regarding pedophilia, you have no grounds to object.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  12. Amen Cow Poke amen'd this post.

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