So what is this toxic masculinity thing anyhow?

[carpedm9587]

But you would be the one assuming his motivation. He might be doing it because he respects women and was taught to do it because that is how you show respect to a lady. So yes, he was doing it because he is a man and she was a woman, but it was not being condescending.

Again - no one is assuming any motivation. No one is saying that "toxic masculinity" is always unequivocally evident. Sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn't. The same action may be motivated by genuine concern - or by toxic masculinity - and the outside witness cannot tell the difference. Raising it as an issue is a way of saying to whoever is listening, "give some thought to what YOUR motivation is."

For myself, if I open a door for a lady and she assumes it is motivated by "toxic masculinity" and responds in kind, I'm going to excuse myself, close the door, and let her open it herself. If I find that I tend to open doors for women and not open them for men - then I'm going to spend a little time examining my attitudes and why it is I do that.

And not all "toxic masculinity" is equally toxic.

[Mountain Man]

"Toxic masculinity" is just a convenient handle to label a phenomenon.

As convenient as a broad paintbrush...

[carpedm9587]

Most waitresses will put up with it and even flirt back because they know it means a bigger tip.

Which is a marvelous example of a woman leveraging "toxic masculinity" for her own advantage - by playing into it. How much better would this world be if men didn't treat women that way, and still gave them the more generous tip simply because the service was good.

[carpedm9587]

As convenient as a broad paintbrush...

Even a broad paintbrush has its uses. I don't think I would want to paint a deck without one.

[Mountain Man]

Which is a marvelous example of a woman leveraging "toxic masculinity" for her own advantage - by playing into it. How much better would this world be if men didn't treat women that way, and still gave them the more generous tip simply because the service was good.

On the other hand, there are some waitresses who turn on the "charm" the moment they walk up to the table and call the guys "hon" and "sweetie", so it goes both ways.

[Cow Poke]

Most waitresses will put up with it and even flirt back because they know it means a bigger tip.

I think that's getting less true, except in the "diners and dives", but, yeah.

[Cow Poke]

On the other hand, there are some waitresses who turn on the "charm" the moment they walk up to the table and call the guys "hon" and "sweetie", so it goes both ways.

My wife and I love to see when a waiter or waitress seems genuinely friendly and polite -- not that trashy "I wanna get a big tip, so I'm gonna fake 'nice'".

[carpedm9587]

On the other hand, there are some waitresses who turn on the "charm" the moment they walk up to the table and call the guys "hon" and "sweetie", so it goes both ways.

Yes - it does. So the question is, as always, what is motivating it and what larger dynamic is it a part of.

Look - this issue is getting a lot more attention than I think it deserves. I don't waste a lot of brain cells on why the waitress is being nice. But if asked about it - and I think about it - I realize it can be in a quest to give good service - a naked attempt to get a bigger tip - and it can even be trying to leverage "toxic masculinity." The first is fine. The second is annoying, often transparent, but understandable. The latter is unfortunate. I would hope women today would not be buying into (and reinforcing) that shallow mindset.

[rogue06]

My wife and I love to see when a waiter or waitress seems genuinely friendly and polite -- not that trashy "I wanna get a big tip, so I'm gonna fake 'nice'".

What, wait. Are you saying that some, maybe even most of those waitresses who flirt with me aren't doing so because I'm suave, debonair and devastatingly handsome?!? smiley jawdrop.gif

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[carpedm9587]

What, wait. Are you saying that some, maybe even most of those waitresses who flirt with me aren't doing so because I'm suave, debonair and devastatingly handsome?!? [ATTACH=CONFIG]34773[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]34774[/ATTACH]

So many possible answers - so little time...

[Mountain Man]

Yes - it does. So the question is, as always, what is motivating it and what larger dynamic is it a part of.

Or... We can always assume the best intentions unless there is clear evidence to the contrary.

[carpedm9587]

Or... We can always assume the best intentions unless there is clear evidence to the contrary.

It's not an "or." I try to always assume the best motivations of others. No part of any of this discussion has implied (on my part) that we should be questioning every little action of every person. The point of having the discussion is to raise awareness of what "toxic masculinity" is so men will (hopefully) do a little self-examination and see if it is part of how they function. And to also communicate to women that at least some of us men will not tolerate overt toxic masculinity any longer.

I know that I have been guilty of listening to someone tell a joke that objectifies women, and keeping my mouth shut because I didn't want to rock the boat. Having the discussion makes me re-examine that behavior - and hopefully the next time I will say, "that's not really appropriate" instead of staying silent.

[Starlight]

To me, this thread is basically:

Liberals: "The behavior of men in our society should be more Christ-like"

Some Conservatives: "We object to everything liberals say, on principle, therefore we disagree! Vehemently!!! This is part of the Librul Agenda!"
Some Conservatives: "We grew up with nasty behaviors being acceptable for men, therefore we're really upset that liberals want men to behave better! We loved it the way things were when men could be jerks! Women love it when men are jerks! It's biological nature for men to be jerks!"
Some Conservatives: "We grew up with the teaching that men should act Christ-like, so this suggestion that men should be Christ-like is stupid because we, personally, were already taught that! How dare anybody try to teach it, because we already were taught it! Dumb! Sad!"

Liberals: ~sigh~ ~face-palm~

[Mountain Man]

Dimbulb: "straw man fallacy"

Everybody else:

[One Bad Pig]

Dimbulb: "straw man fallacy"

Everybody else:

That's almost being unfair to strawmen. Starlight's post makes about as much sense as randomly declaring that the moon smells green.