So what is this toxic masculinity thing anyhow?

[Cow Poke]

That's almost being unfair to strawmen. Starlight's post makes about as much sense as randomly declaring that the moon smells green.

Hey, watch it -- I just noticed to night that blue smells like cherry pipe tobacco.

[Cow Poke]

To me, this thread is basically:

Liberals: "The behavior of men in our society should be more Christ-like"

Some Conservatives: "We object to everything liberals say, on principle, therefore we disagree! Vehemently!!! This is part of the Librul Agenda!"
Some Conservatives: "We grew up with nasty behaviors being acceptable for men, therefore we're really upset that liberals want men to behave better! We loved it the way things were when men could be jerks! Women love it when men are jerks! It's biological nature for men to be jerks!"
Some Conservatives: "We grew up with the teaching that men should act Christ-like, so this suggestion that men should be Christ-like is stupid because we, personally, were already taught that! How dare anybody try to teach it, because we already were taught it! Dumb! Sad!"

Liberals: ~sigh~ ~face-palm~

I'm hoping you're not thinking this is "Post of the Day" material.

[TheWall]

I referenced some of the characyers in fiction that were used to represent behavior that was not acceptable.

Yusuke fighting Kuwabara is acceptable. The Toguro Brothers abuse of Yukina was not. Biff Tannen being a despotic abuser in another timeline was nightmarish. Kenshiro crying as he fougjt Raoh was heartbreaking considering Kenshiro had to fight his own adoptive brother to the death.

All of these stories deal with managing ones emotions and the consequences of ones actions. In none of these stories is the message that growing up requires one to supress their emotions. The point is that their is a time and a place for different emotions and actions.

[Tassman]

Dear Abby...

When I am on an elevator, I always let the ladies get off first.

Whilst not suggesting that you elbow your way out, why do you “always let the ladies get out first?”

[Starlight]

I'm hoping you're not thinking this is "Post of the Day" material.

Well it should be as it saves people having to read the rest of the thread.

[Mountain Man]

That's almost being unfair to strawmen. Starlight's post makes about as much sense as randomly declaring that the moon smells green.

I think he suffers from toxic stupidity.

[lilpixieofterror]

Well it should be as it saves people having to read the rest of the thread.

If you think your post is accurate to what was said on this thread, I have a cheap bridge to sell you in New York.

[One Bad Pig]

Well it should be as it completely misrepresents the rest of the thread.

Fixed that for you, no charge.

[carpedm9587]

I'm hoping you're not thinking this is "Post of the Day" material.

I don't think this is "post of the day" material, but I think I understand the feelings behind it. I would have written it like this:

To me, this thread is basically:

Proposal: "Toxic masculinity" is a mindset that emphasizes male traits to a destructive, abusive, harmful level.

Some conservatives: "Toxic masculinity" doesn't exist and is just another liberal label used to denigrate men (conservatives? Republicans?)
Some conservatives: "Toxic masculinity" is just a phrase that can be used to accuse any man of anything anytime, so it's meaningless.
Some conservatives: "Toxic masculinity" is just another word for "being a jerk" and we don't need the phrase. it's more harmful than beneficial.

I disagree with all of those positions in all of their forms. "Toxic masculinity" is real. If it were not, there would have been no #MeToo movement. If it were not, there would not be a network of women's shelters across the country. If it were not, women would earn as much as men for doing the same work and doing it just as well.

And my wife reminded me, last night, that it is not limited to male/female exchanges. She told this story from her childhood. When she was in middle school, an eighth grader (who was slight, and shy, and fearful) was being bullied by a sixth grader who outweighed him by 20+ pounds, and two of his friends. The child ran into his home to escape the bullies, and was met by his father. Upon realizing what was happening (the boy was in tears) he screamed, "get out there and fight them! No son of mine is going to be a sissy wimp!" and then shoved the boy back out the door. The boy stood sobbing on the front porch of the house. Even the bullies knew this was over the top, and slowly walked away.

Masculinity is defined as "qualities or attributes regarded as characteristic of men." Some men exaggerate those qualities and apply them in harmful and abusive ways. Yes - they are being jerks. But the term "toxic masculinity" simply defines what kind of jerk we're talking about. A bully is also a specific kind of jerk. A liar is another specific kind of jerk. There is nothing wrong with calling out a specific kind of "jerk" and talking about it.

No one (as far as I know) is calling all male actions "toxic." And it is true that the same action can be toxic or nontoxic depending on what motivates it. It is also true that telling someone else what motivates them is always a problem (though I have to admit that I find the objection on this front somewhat ironic, given the number of times I have been told what my motivations are on this site). Not all forms of "toxic masculinity" are created equal, as I noted. They can range from the more innocuous (e.g., opening the door for the "little woman,") to the more egregious (e.g., nothing the belt for each virgin bedded).

But ignoring the phenomenon seems to me a silly thing to do. And I have to admit that I do not understand the resistance to creating for a name for a thing we need to talk about, and become aware of.

ETA: And at the risk of being accused of "projection," I have found that having these discussions with my wife and others has made me aware of times when I have engaged in some form of "toxic masculinity." I've never engaged in the more egregious forms, but I have engaged in the more subtle forms. Having the conversation raised my awareness, and caused me to re-evaluate and change my behavior as a consequence. Personally, I think that's a good thing. I wish I could say I'm now perfect at it - but I'm not. Color me human.

[seer]

I disagree with all of those positions in all of their forms. "Toxic masculinity" is real. If it were not, there would have been no #MeToo movement. If it were not, there would not be a network of women's shelters across the country. If it were not, women would earn as much as men for doing the same work and doing it just as well.

The fact is the majority of men would not fall under that label (depending on how you define it). None of the guys here would. And yes this term is being used to broad brush males.

[Mountain Man]

And yes this term is being used to broad brush males.

Bingo.

[carpedm9587]

The fact is the majority of men would not fall under that label (depending on how you define it). None of the guys here would. And yes this term is being used to broad brush males.

I suspect that most males have engaged in toxic masculinity to some degree - and most of us have probably engaged in the milder forms. So ask yourself, have you ever listened to a raunchy joke that demeans women without speaking up? Have you ever opened a door for a woman because she was a woman, rather than just doing it because she's another human being and you were being polite? If you are in a position to hire - have you ever selected a man for a position even though there was a woman equally or more qualified? Have you ever suggested to a son that "real men don't cry?" Have you ever called a woman politician "shrill" because she shouted but not called a male politician "shrill" when he does the same thing? Have you ever commented (or thought) about a female politician's choice of dress and not commented (or thought) about a male politician's choice of dress? Have you ever reacted differently to a male politician who cries in public than a female politician who does the same thing?

I could go on - but I think you get the idea. There are stereotypes we all sometimes trip into without thinking. It doesn't make us "bad." It just means perhaps it deserves a bit of attention. If your answer to all of these (and any other possible questions) is "no," - then congratulations - you are apparently one of the males who has escaped any form of "toxic masculinity." I tend to think, given what I see in our culture, that such an animal is fairly rare. I DO think most men are decent and good and want to do the right thing. But we are all children of our culture and upbringing.

[seer]

I suspect that most males have engaged in toxic masculinity to some degree - and most of us have probably engaged in the milder forms. So ask yourself, have you ever listened to a raunchy joke that demeans women without speaking up? Have you ever opened a door for a woman because she was a woman, rather than just doing it because she's another human being and you were being polite? If you are in a position to hire - have you ever selected a man for a position even though there was a woman equally or more qualified? Have you ever suggested to a son that "real men don't cry?" Have you ever called a woman politician "shrill" because she shouted but not called a male politician "shrill" when he does the same thing? Have you ever commented (or thought) about a female politician's choice of dress and not commented (or thought) about a male politician's choice of dress? Have you ever reacted differently to a male politician who cries in public than a female politician who does the same thing?

See, I don't agree that most of that is toxic (some is though).

[Cow Poke]

The fact is the majority of men would not fall under that label (depending on how you define it). None of the guys here would. And yes this term is being used to broad brush males.

And the problem is that such labels ostensibly intended to identify a problem element end up being used to identify any man who's not a total wimp.

[Cow Poke]

Well it should be as it saves people having to read the rest of the thread.

Well, in that case, epic fail.