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Thread: So what is this toxic masculinity thing anyhow?

  1. #1421
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    You disagree with the law Tassy, so you are not following your societies morals. Many people do this. Which shows that society doesn't set the morals.
    Of course, society “sets the morals” where else would they come from?

    Otherwise people living in that society would agree with them. You wouldn't have half of the society claiming that abortion was immoral. Morals are not set by society.
    If the majority of society want a law changed then, in our society, it will be changed. This has happened numerous times over the course of human history. E.g.: “Two-thirds of Americans want Roe v. Wade left in place, and most who hold that view would be disappointed or angry if the ruling were to be overturned someday”.

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/majorit...ws-poll-finds/

    Morals exist separate from society and societies adopt various morals, sometimes getting it right, sometimes getting it wrong. Because there IS an objective right and wrong. And you believe in it too, even if you pretend not to.
    Morals do NOT “exist separate from society”, they reflect the social values of society and are legislated accordingly.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  2. #1422
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    in order to ADOPT something it has to exist already, dummy.
    Well, semantically speaking, if that's the way you want to use the term. But that's just the way you choose to use the term because you believe that morals have objective existence. A subjective idea has existence in that sense, and you can adopt a subjective idea to live by, but that doesn't mean that the subjective idea has any real existence in its own right.

  3. #1423
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    Of course, society “sets the morals” where else would they come from?



    If the majority of society want a law changed then, in our society, it will be changed. This has happened numerous times over the course of human history. E.g.: “Two-thirds of Americans want Roe v. Wade left in place, and most who hold that view would be disappointed or angry if the ruling were to be overturned someday”.

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/majorit...ws-poll-finds/



    Morals do NOT “exist separate from society”, they reflect the social values of society and are legislated accordingly.
    So if Australia decided to outlaw abortion, then you would then agree that abortions are immoral?

  4. #1424
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Well, semantically speaking, if that's the way you want to use the term. But that's just the way you choose to use the term because you believe that morals have objective existence. A subjective idea has existence in that sense, and you can adopt a subjective idea to live by, but that doesn't mean that the subjective idea has any real existence in its own right.
    Is that your objective opinion?

  5. #1425
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    So if Australia decided to outlaw abortion, then you would then agree that abortions are immoral?
    This is an invalid hypothetical, because it does not reflect the social values of society. The majority of people in Australia do not think that first trimester abortion is immoral. The same applies in the US.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  6. #1426
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    This is an invalid hypothetical, because it does not reflect the social values of society. The majority of people in Australia do not think that first trimester abortion is immoral. The same applies in the US.
    And yet at one time they did. And they could again. So don't avoid my question. If Australia (your society) decided to outlaw abortion, would you then agree that abortions are immoral?

  7. #1427
    tWebber Tassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    And yet at one time they did. And they could again. So don't avoid my question. If Australia (your society) decided to outlaw abortion, would you then agree that abortions are immoral?
    You’re missing the argument, repeated several times, that “if the majority of society want a law changed then, in our society, it will be changed, including the abortion laws. If one disagrees with a Law then one lobbies to change it. It’s not as if Laws are objective and unchangeable, they merely reflect current social values.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

  8. #1428
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    You’re missing the argument, repeated several times, that “if the majority of society want a law changed then, in our society, it will be changed, including the abortion laws. If one disagrees with a Law then one lobbies to change it. It’s not as if Laws are objective and unchangeable, they merely reflect current social values.
    You still are not answering my question. If the majority of society thinks abortion is immoral then they will change the law to say abortion is immoral, right? So if they did that in your society would you then believe that abortions is immoral? Would abortion be immoral?

  9. #1429
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    You still are not answering my question. If the majority of society thinks abortion is immoral then they will change the law to say abortion is immoral, right? So if they did that in your society would you then believe that abortions is immoral? Would abortion be immoral?
    Morals, what is right and what is wrong behavior, are dependent on the best interests of society regardless of what any one individual believes. In a sense you could argue that what is in the best interests of a society is objective, because it either is or isn't in its best interests, but it isn't set down in stone.

  10. #1430
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Morals, what is right and what is wrong behavior, are dependent on the best interests of society regardless of what any one individual believes. In a sense you could argue that what is in the best interests of a society is objective, because it either is or isn't in its best interests, but it isn't set down in stone.
    "best" assumes an objective standard of "good" that society is striving towards. And if there is an objective standard of "good" then morality is objective.

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