So what is this toxic masculinity thing anyhow?

[carpedm9587]

Perhaps we should start calling it "toxic liberalism".

I have no doubt that there is such a thing - as well as toxic conservativsm - toxic Christianity - and toxic atheism - not to mention toxic femininity. Anyone or any group can turn a good thing to a bad one. That is pretty much the definition of "toxic."

[Mountain Man]

I have no doubt that there is such a thing - as well as toxic conservativsm - toxic Christianity - and toxic atheism - not to mention toxic femininity. Anyone or any group can turn a good thing to a bad one. That is pretty much the definition of "toxic."

You really don't get it, do you? A liberal can be a jerk. A Christian can be a jerk. A conservative, an atheist, and a feminist can be jerk. Literally anybody can be a jerk. That's not "toxic [whatever]", that's just someone being a jerk! But calling it "toxic [whatever]" implies that the bad behavior in question is exclusive or at least inherent to that group. I have no doubt that you would object very strongly if that kind of thinking were applied to your boys, and you would be right to object. I'll leave it as exercise in introspection for you to figure out why.

[Tassman]

Because I am a gentleman who respects women.

Why would you not respect all people equally, why just women?

either that or I want to make sure it is safe first before I step off.

That's more like it.

[Roy]

You really don't get it, do you? A liberal can be a jerk. A Christian can be a jerk. A conservative, an atheist, and a feminist can be jerk. Literally anybody can be a jerk. That's not "toxic [whatever]", that's just someone being a jerk! But calling it "toxic [whatever]" implies that the bad behavior in question is exclusive or at least inherent to that group.

So "toxic" is a magic adjective possessing properties no other adjective has.

Saying "toxic masculinity" implies all masculinity is toxic, and only masculinity is toxic.
Likewise, saying "toxic femininity" implies all femininity is toxic, and only femininity is toxic.
Mentioning "toxic masculinity" and "toxic femininity" is a contradiction.

Referring to "toxic posting" implies all posts are toxic, including MM's, but nothing else (including both masculinity and femininity) is toxic.

Alternatively, MM is a blithering idiot.

[Cow Poke]

Why would you not respect all people equally, why just women?

Because they smell nicer.

[carpedm9587]

You really don't get it, do you?

There is a difference between "getting it" and "agreeing with it."

A liberal can be a jerk.

Agreed.

A Christian can be a jerk.

Agreed.

A conservative, an atheist, and a feminist can be jerk.

Agreed.

Literally anybody can be a jerk.

Agreed.

That's not "toxic [whatever]", that's just someone being a jerk!

It depends

But calling it "toxic [whatever]" implies that the bad behavior in question is exclusive or at least inherent to that group.

In this case - it is. It's kinda hard for a women to engage in "toxic masculinity."

I have no doubt that you would object very strongly if that kind of thinking were applied to your boys, and you would be right to object.

You are assuming/guessing with no basis. While it has never happened, I would like to think that I would affirm it if my boys were actually engaging in it, and deny it if they weren't.

I'll leave it as exercise in introspection for you to figure out why.

I don't need to.

I have made the case several times, MM. You guys have not responded to it. A bully is a kind of "jerk." No one says, "get rid of the word "bully" because it just means "jerk." Bullying is a specific kind of jerk and the approach to bullying focuses specifically on bullying behavior. Lying is a specific kind of jerk. Same deal.

In the end, I think you folks hate "toxic masculinity" because it narrows down to a particular type of person: a man. You are afraid all men can be (and sometimes inappropriately are) painted by that brush. Yet many people paint "liar" with too broad a brush, and no one is suggesting eliminating the word "liar." And I have listened to many objections to "radical feminism" with not a single person objecting to it as "narrowing down to one group" or "painting with too broad a brush." Yet, interestingly, a "radical feminist" is just a jerk, right? She's just a bully, correct? We should ditch the language "radical feminism," which is pretty close to the female equivalent of "toxic male." Yet that proposal is not made by anyone here.

Now I wonder why that might be...?

[seer]

As best I can tell, you prefer a world where everyone aspires to be an alpha - and if they don't they're a wimp and need to "buck up."

Not necessarily, last night my lady friend brought me to a high end, invitation only art show where she was presenting one of her works. It was filled with sensitive artist types, and I had a few interesting conversations, and managed not to embarrass Jan (which has not always been the case). So there is a place for such men. Yet you need alpha males, even if they go over the edge at times or are not politically correct. After all who will protect the betas and women?

This link contains salty language, but it mirrors almost exactly (it is actually to tame) my experience on Parris Island. And at just 18 years old the experience is formative. But this is how warriors and defenders are made. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRO2bkF3Iz8

[Cow Poke]

In the end, I think you folks hate "toxic masculinity" because it narrows down to a particular type of person: a man. You are afraid all men can be (and sometimes are) painted by that brush....

Carpe - I wish you guys would stop telling me what I think!!!!!
Carpe - Here's exactly what you guys think!!!!

(yeah, I know, you didn't say "here's exactly...." - you just proceeded to ascribe our inner thoughts to us.)

[Cow Poke]

...and managed not to embarrass Jan...

That's always such a warm feeling, isn't it?

[carpedm9587]

Not necessarily, last night my lady friend brought me to a high end, invitation only art show where she was presenting one of her works. It was filled with sensitive artist types, and I had a few interesting conversations, and managed not to embarrass Jan (which has not always been the case). So there is a place for such men. Yet you need alpha males, even if they go over the edge at times or are not politically correct. After all who will protect the betas and women?

Yes - you need alpha males. What is NOT necessary is toxic masculinity. The two are not equivalent. I am not even sure there is data to show that the incidence of toxic masculinity is higher in alpha males than beta males. But it is definitely present.

This link contains salty language, but it mirrors almost exactly (it is actually to tame) my experience on Parris Island. And at just 18 years old the experience is formative. But this is how warriors and defenders are made. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRO2bkF3Iz8

I have no idea how any of this relates to "toxic masculinity," which was the subject of this thread.

[carpedm9587]

Carpe - I wish you guys would stop telling me what I think!!!!!
Carpe - Here's exactly what you guys think!!!!

(yeah, I know, you didn't say "here's exactly...." - you just proceeded to ascribe our inner thoughts to us.)

I think you missed the "I think" part.

[Cow Poke]

I think you missed the "I think" part.

No, I covered that in the parenthetical part. Perhaps I should have added a whole bunch of verbosity.

[carpedm9587]

No, I covered that in the parenthetical part. Perhaps I should have added a whole bunch of verbosity.

I acknowledge that the statement would have sounded less like an accusation if it had been written like this:

"Is it at all possible that you folks hate "toxic masculinity" because it narrows down to a particular type of person: a man? That you are afraid all men can be (and sometimes are) painted by that brush?"

Note that the second sentence is something multiple people have explicitly said - so I am not reading their minds.

[Cow Poke]

I acknowledge that the statement would have sounded less like an accusation if it had been written like this:

"Is it at all possible that you folks hate "toxic masculinity" because it narrows down to a particular type of person: a man? That you are afraid all men can be (and sometimes are) painted by that brush?"

Note that the second sentence is something multiple people have explicitly said - so I am not reading their minds.

Sheeeeesh!!!!!!

OK.... let's cut to the quick.

You're right, Carpe. You're ALWAYS right. Why do we even bother trying to say otherwise?

[Cow Poke]

From TeachingTolerance.org