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So what is this toxic masculinity thing anyhow?

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  • Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
    Kind of pathetic that the bulk of Tassman's objection to Christianity have a strong moral component, yet he himself has no basis for his morals being relevant to people in other communities.
    I think one of the strongest arguments against atheism is that most atheists instinctively reject the implications of their own worldview.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
      You’re confusing “stability” with “conformity”. China, with its enforced conformity, is certainly more stable in that sense than many Western countries. Whether or not that is a good thing is another question. The large numbers of Uighur Muslims incarcerated in Chinese detention camps probably wouldn’t think so.
      No Tass, I am not confusing anything. And incarcerating Uighur Muslims is one way to preserve stability. Which is a moral good if your stability is the goal.



      Equal rights are considered a desirable moral good as compared to notions of “objective moral good”, which are enforced by those who think they’ve got it right. Notions of “objective moral good” have changed considerably over the millennia, especially that supposedly grounded in scripture.
      Those who think they’ve got it right? You mean like those who invented the idea of equal rights?
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
        Your avoidance of the issue shows that you indeed have no answer. You have no basis to object to anyone else's moral values - that's the logical outcome of your own beliefs.
        Who are you to object to anyone’s moral values, on what basis...that yours’s are right and those of others are wrong? This will take us back to the good ole’ days of religious wars. Is that what you want?
        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

        Comment


        • I recall an incident where a person was quite peaceably sitting at a table on a university campus. On the table were informational leaflets promoting the Republican cause. A passing anti-Trumper berated the person for promoting violence, upended his table, and assaulted and left him injured. Near as I can tell, Tassman, your post above demonstrates a mind-set similar to that of the anti-Trumper.
          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
          Scripture before Tradition:
          but that won't prevent others from
          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
          of the right to call yourself Christian.

          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            And yet you claimed that Arab societies that practice tossing homosexuals off of rooftops was immoral. It is only immoral in our society, so you have no actual argument with them claiming it is moral in their society.
            It is barbaric by current Western standards. Moral values that are grounded in the perceived ordinances of a deity, in this case Allah, tend to be more primitive than those of modern Western society because they reflect the moral values of 1,500 years ago. Similarly, with Judeo/Christian morality. Morality has evolved a lot since then. We're well past the days of killing witches, incarcerating homosexuals, subjugating women and justifying slave ownership.

            Yet you do complain that what they do is actually immoral. You can't help yourself. Because in your heart you know that morals are objective.
            I know no such thing. Morals are demonstrably NOT objective. Western morality has changed and adapted considerably throughout history and continue to do so. For the better IMHO.
            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by seer View Post
              No Tass, I am not confusing anything. And incarcerating Uighur Muslims is one way to preserve stability. Which is a moral good if your stability is the goal.
              In this instance “conformity” to an ideology is the goal, NOT stability. In just the same way religions demand conformity to their ideology. People forced to conform against their will ultimately result in instability because the oppressed will revolt at the first opportunity.

              Those who think they’ve got it right?
              I mean those who claim to know what God REALLY means as opposed to those who, in their view, have got it wrong.

              You mean like those who invented the idea of equal rights?
              Are equal rights for all citizens a bad thing. Why?
              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                In this instance “conformity” to an ideology is the goal, NOT stability. In just the same way religions demand conformity to their ideology. People forced to conform against their will ultimately result in instability because the oppressed will revolt at the first opportunity.
                Nonsense Tass, you have moved the goal posts from stability to conformity. And I don't see China falling apart anytime soon, the totalitarian Roman empire lasted for centuries, longer than our present western democracies. And a society needs a high degree conformity to survive, if we don't share certain principles and values we would be constantly at each other's throat. You have nothing Tass.


                I mean those who claim to know what God REALLY means as opposed to those who, in their view, have got it wrong.
                You mean like Mayor Pete?


                Are equal rights for all citizens a bad thing. Why?
                In your world it is neither objectively good or bad. Never mind the very idea of human rights - where do they come from Tass, how are they any more than legal fictions? Bed time stories we tell ourselves?
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Tassmoron View Post
                  Who are you to object to anyone’s moral values, on what basis...that yours’s are right and those of others are wrong? This will take us back to the good ole’ days of religious wars. Is that what you want?
                  And yet you hypocritically object to the moral values of Muslim culture.
                  Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                  But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                  Than a fool in the eyes of God


                  From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                    It is barbaric by current Western standards.
                    so what? They are not part of Western society. So their morals are different. Since you said that morals are determined by each society, you have no say so about some other society's morals. They are just as valid as yours are.


                    Moral values that are grounded in the perceived ordinances of a deity, in this case Allah, tend to be more primitive than those of modern Western society because they reflect the moral values of 1,500 years ago. Similarly, with Judeo/Christian morality. Morality has evolved a lot since then. We're well past the days of killing witches, incarcerating homosexuals, subjugating women and justifying slave ownership.
                    that is just your opinion as an atheist in another society. Since you already said that morals are unique to each society your opinion doesn't matter. They probably think your morals are barbaric and primitive because you are an infidel.




                    Originally posted by sparko
                    Yet you do complain that what they do is actually immoral. You can't help yourself. Because in your heart you know that morals are objective.
                    I know no such thing.
                    You just did again, right above.


                    Morals are demonstrably NOT objective. Western morality has changed and adapted considerably throughout history and continue to do so. For the better IMHO.
                    How can you make a determination of what is "better?" Just because you agree with the current morals doesn't make them better. That is just another opinion. Other people would disagree with you. If morals are not objective then there is no "better" or "worse" because there is no objective standard to compare them to.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      so what? They are not part of Western society. So their morals are different. Since you said that morals are determined by each society, you have no say so about some other society's morals. They are just as valid as yours are.
                      Yes, I didn’t say otherwise. Although, I prefer our moral code to theirs, don’t you? Or do you have a secret yearning to throw homosexuals from rooftops?

                      that is just your opinion as an atheist in another society. Since you already said that morals are unique to each society your opinion doesn't matter. They probably think your morals are barbaric and primitive because you are an infidel.
                      Moral values grounded in the perceived ordinances of a deity, can only reflect the moral values of the era in which they were formed…i.e. tribal societies in the case of all the Abrahamic religions.

                      How can you make a determination of what is "better?" Just because you agree with the current morals doesn't make them better.
                      One can reasonably determine that current Western moral values are more appropriate to modern Western society than the tribal values of an earlier era. If only because we no longer live in a tribal society.

                      That is just another opinion. Other people would disagree with you. If morals are not objective then there is no "better" or "worse" because there is no objective standard to compare them to.
                      There is no absolute objective standard. Deities were merely imbued with the moral standards of the day by those that created the deities. These were no more “objective” than the moral values of today.
                      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post
                        Nonsense Tass, you have moved the goal posts from stability to conformity.
                        No, you did. Enforced conformity as in China or Iran, does not equate to “stability” in a free society with free speech as per the West.

                        In your world it is neither objectively good or bad. Never mind the very idea of human rights - where do they come from Tass,
                        The concept of equal 'human rights' comes from the evolution of moral values and social behavior to enable the survival of our species in cooperative communities. The social rules that were necessary for a nomadic tribal society to survive in OT times are no longer suitable for a modern, multicultural, international community such as ours.

                        how are they any more than legal fictions? Bed time stories we tell ourselves?
                        So, dying/rising gods and blood sacrifices on the cross to Atone for ‘sinful’ Man are NOT “bed-time stories”?
                        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                          No, you did. Enforced conformity as in China or Iran, does not equate to “stability” in a free society with free speech as per the West.
                          Nonsense Tass, you said that the developed countries, with their emphasis on equal rights, were more stable. That does not follow. And what is wrong with forced conformity if it leads to more stability?

                          The concept of equal 'human rights' comes from the evolution of moral values and social behavior to enable the survival of our species in cooperative communities. The social rules that were necessary for a nomadic tribal society to survive in OT times are no longer suitable for a modern, multicultural, international community such as ours.
                          More nonsense, China and Iran and Saudi Arabia, etc... are surviving just fine...


                          So, dying/rising gods and blood sacrifices on the cross to Atone for ‘sinful’ Man are NOT “bed-time stories”?
                          Human rights in a godless universe are an invented fiction, they do not exist. They are make believe.
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                            Yes, I didn’t say otherwise.
                            Yes you did. You argued that they were barbaric.




                            Moral values grounded in the perceived ordinances of a deity, can only reflect the moral values of the era in which they were formed…i.e. tribal societies in the case of all the Abrahamic religions.
                            Our society's moral code is based on that same deity.



                            One can reasonably determine that current Western moral values are more appropriate to modern Western society than the tribal values of an earlier era. If only because we no longer live in a tribal society.
                            And yet our laws and moral codes can be traced back to the same roots as those "tribal societies" and are based on the same.


                            There is no absolute objective standard. Deities were merely imbued with the moral standards of the day by those that created the deities. These were no more “objective” than the moral values of today.
                            And yet you keep arguing as if morals are objective, telling Christians that our God is immoral, that the arabs are barbaric, that morals are "getting better"

                            Let me ask you something. We are currently seeing several US states trying to legalize infanticide. Infanticide is something those barbaric societies of the past used to do. Killing unwanted babies, or even sacrificing them. Do you think our society trying to legalize infanticide (after birth abortion they call it) is an example of our morals "getting better?"

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                              Who are you to object to anyone’s moral values, on what basis...that yours’s are right and those of others are wrong? This will take us back to the good ole’ days of religious wars. Is that what you want?

                              Stop dodging. The problem is that YOU are acting incoherently when you attempt to impose your moral values - which are entirely subjective, according to you - on others. That's no more reasonable that you insisting that your personal tastes in music be imposed on others, by force if need be. It's just another set of personal and subjective beliefs. You're literally insane to want to do that.

                              All your talk of morals 'improving' or getting 'better' is just bunk. There's no such thing in your world, since there is no objective goal to improve towards. Morals are just what they are, and no set is any better than any other set, except insofar as it aligns with Tassman's pet hobbyhorses. Your moral preaching rings entirely hollow, because of your moral subjectivism. Emperor Tassman has no clothes. Stop thinking you're morally superior to others. You're not. Your worldview doesn't allow that.
                              ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
                                Your moral preaching rings entirely hollow, because of your moral subjectivism.
                                Bingo!
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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