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  • #31
    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
    There are enough kickers in the college ranks who have both accuracy and length beyond 60 yards that her skillset just isn't good enough. having said that her story is still an amazing one and she has come a long way.
    Good points...
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
      Or the same could be achieved by basing the class on strength rather than sex. There are many ways to measure strength - which is the actual issue. That would also sort men into such classes, evening the playing field in much the same way it is done for boxing.
      Which will likely give you men in one corner and women in another. Even at that, people were already sorted going professional. Professional players are professionals for a reason.

      No - I didn't suggest anything of the kind. You are misreading my posts.
      So what are you suggesting?
      "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
      GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
        Which will likely give you men in one corner and women in another. Even at that, people were already sorted going professional. Professional players are professionals for a reason.
        I suspect it will give us several "levels" of golfing (as it does boxing) with men only occupying the top tiers and a combination of men and women occupying lower tiers. But we won't know, of course, until we try it.

        Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
        So what are you suggesting?
        I'm suggesting exactly what I said: a continual barrage of "you aren't as strong/fast as men" has at least the potential to create what it predicts. We have no way of knowing, at this point, just how much the gap between men and women could be narrowed if that messaging changed and there were more opportunities for women and men to compete on an equal footing - with no fixed boundaries based on sex. Intuitively, it seems reasonable to believe at least some degree of narrowing would occur, based on our experience with "negative messaging" in other venues.
        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
          I suspect it will give us several "levels" of golfing (as it does boxing) with men only occupying the top tiers and a combination of men and women occupying lower tiers. But we won't know, of course, until we try it.
          Treating different sports as though they are all the same is silliness to the nth degree. Boxers have reasons for weight classes because the weight difference can have a pretty large impact on who wins and loses. Golf is not a contact sport and golfers are not fighters. How many 200 lbs golfers have you known? If you haven’t noticed, golfers are pretty skinny and I doubt weight classes would make sense in golf since golf is as much about your accuracy as it is raw strength.

          I'm suggesting exactly what I said: a continual barrage of "you aren't as strong/fast as men" has at least the potential to create what it predicts. We have no way of knowing, at this point, just how much the gap between men and women could be narrowed if that messaging changed and there were more opportunities for women and men to compete on an equal footing - with no fixed boundaries based on sex. Intuitively, it seems reasonable to believe at least some degree of narrowing would occur, based on our experience with "negative messaging" in other venues.
          Show me 10 women athletes that have equal records to the men. As it had been pointed out, one of the best female kickers is no match for her male counterparts. Same is true in almost every sport and if this isn’t true, show otherwise.
          "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
          GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
            Treating different sports as though they are all the same is silliness to the nth degree.
            Again with a superlative. I didn't say sports were all the same. I provided one possibility with golf and used boxing as an analogy. Since the issue is distance - which is related to strength, I find the approach to have some potential.

            Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
            Boxers have reasons for weight classes because the weight difference can have a pretty large impact on who wins and loses. Golf is not a contact sport and golfers are not fighters. How many 200 lbs golfers have you known? If you haven’t noticed, golfers are pretty skinny and I doubt weight classes would make sense in golf since golf is as much about your accuracy as it is raw strength.
            Which is why I recommended a strength-based distinction rather than a weight-based one.

            Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
            Show me 10 women athletes that have equal records to the men.
            Why do I need to do that?

            Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
            As it had been pointed out, one of the best female kickers is no match for her male counterparts. Same is true in almost every sport and if this isn’t true, show otherwise.
            Since I have not made this claim, I see no reason to defend it.
            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
              Again with a superlative. I didn't say sports were all the same. I provided one possibility with golf and used boxing as an analogy. Since the issue is distance - which is related to strength, I find the approach to have some potential.
              And there you go, trying to pick nits to avoid the problems with your logic. That’s an assumption based on what? Sports developed the way they are today for a reason. Even at that, men still enjoy strength advantages, even at the around the same weight because males have more muscle mass. This is again, a biological fact.

              Which is why I recommended a strength-based distinction rather than a weight-based one.
              And how do you measure it? Leg? Lifting? Pulling? Running? Good luck with your set up since almost everyone is going to differ on these measurements.

              Why do I need to do that?
              For your hypothesis to have some merit, you should have some evidence. Do you?

              Since I have not made this claim, I see no reason to defend it.
              Nah, you instead make assertions you can’t defend and weasel your way out from having to defend them.
              "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
              GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                That’s an assumption based on what?
                Based on the rather obvious reality that how far someone can hit a ball is going to be related to their strength. Do you think it is otherwise? If so - what do you think it is related to?

                Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                Sports developed the way they are today for a reason.
                "It's always been that way" is seldom a useful rationalization. It usually causes us to stop questioning.

                Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                Even at that, men still enjoy strength advantages, even at the around the same weight because males have more muscle mass. This is again, a biological fact.
                Which is why I recommended a strength-based classification, not a weight-based classification (specifically for golfing).

                Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                And how do you measure it? Leg? Lifting? Pulling? Running? Good luck with your set up since almost everyone is going to differ on these measurements.
                Since the issue at hand is "how far can they hit a ball," I would think the classification would be related to that - unless someone has a better idea.

                Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                For your hypothesis to have some merit, you should have some evidence. Do you?
                Since this has nothing to do with my hypothesis, the evidence you are asking for is inapplicable. The hypothesis is: "if we eliminate the negative messaging, we will likely see a narrowing between the abilities of men and women." To test the hypothesis, we would need a means of having a group that is not subject to this messaging, and we would need to measure their performance against a control group that does receive that messaging. The latter group is all around us. The former group is more difficult to create - which is probably why I know of no studies that have attempted to quantify this. So I cannot definitively say "it would happen," and you cannot definitively say, "it would not happen." The best we can say is, "I think it sounds reasonable - but we have no hard evidence for or against the proposition."

                We do have some soft evidence. In general, we know that negative messaging negatively impacts outcomes in many areas. Not always mind you. Sometimes, and for some people, it can be a challenge to excel (e.g., boot camp). But if you take a child and expose them to primarily negative messaging, you generally get negative outcomes. I suspect that is the issue here.
                Last edited by carpedm9587; 01-20-2019, 01:34 PM.
                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                  Where they set the standards is irrelevant to me, as long as the standards are the same for everyone. In many instances, the standards more or less set themselves. If I am looking for the best available, and I have 20 openings - then my "standard" will be the capability of the 20th-best person I interview/test.
                  No, like in the military, we have specific physical requirements for reasons. So these are not irrelevant questions.


                  We seem to agree. I suspect that many sports could be arranged in weight classes: boxing, weight lifting, football, etc. Essentially any sport that is based on strength. More skill-based sports would seem to me to require no sorting. I have never understood why we have to have a woman's golf circuit and a men's golf circuit. I have to wonder if tennis needs to be organized by sex. Many things are the way they are for no other reason than they've always been that way.
                  Women generally can not compete with men. What, are you going to give the lady tennis player 10 points over the man to start? Make a 125lb male boxer fight a 200lb female boxer? That would be a logistical mess, and unnecessary.

                  And I would dearly love to have someone study the degree to which our culture and norms contribute to this "women cannot be as strong or fast as men." I'm not sure how that would be done - but I cannot imagine that the impact is zero. I'm sure biology would lead to some degree of difference - but I wonder how much that gap would narrow if we didn't continually pound home the "women are weaker and slower than men" theme.
                  No Carp, if you look at the weight and strength and size and aggression of our closest primates you see the same differences. It is biology that is generally defining culture not the other way around.
                  Last edited by seer; 01-20-2019, 02:15 PM.
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    No, like in the military, we have specific physical requirements for reasons. So these are not irrelevant questions.
                    The military is a different animal. I was referring to standards for sport teams. I agree that the military has to have a minimum bar - as they do now - and that it should not be adjusted. The same is true for any profession where success in that profession mandates a certain skill set.

                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    Women generally can not compete with men.
                    Horse hockey - even "generally." Your statement is FAR too broad. There are many venues in which women can compete with men.

                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    What, are you going to give the lady tennis player 10 points over the man to start?
                    No - I would try to find ways to segment competing populations by something other than sexual apparatus. We have a model for this in the boxing world (although that world still segments by sex as well).

                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    Make a 125lb male boxer fight a 200lb female boxer?
                    I doubt that would be necessary.

                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    That would be a logistical mess, and unnecessary.
                    Agreed.

                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    No Carp, if you look at the weight and strength and size and aggression of our closest primates you see the same differences. It is biology that is generally defining culture not the other way around.
                    I did not suggest that culture was "defining" biology I was suggesting that culture is "affecting" biology. I think it would be worthwhile to seek to minimize that effect and treat all people based on their potential rather than their sex.
                    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                      Horse hockey - even "generally." Your statement is FAR too broad. There are many venues in which women can compete with men.
                      OK, we were speaking of sports, which sports can women generally or often beat men?



                      No - I would try to find ways to segment competing populations by something other than sexual apparatus. We have a model for this in the boxing world (although that world still segments by sex as well).
                      What actually would that look like? How would you line up, for instance, a professional female weightlifter with a male. What would that look like?


                      I doubt that would be necessary.
                      Then what are you taking about?

                      I did not suggest that culture was "defining" biology I was suggesting that culture is "affecting" biology. I think it would be worthwhile to seek to minimize that effect and treat all people based on their potential rather than their sex.
                      I mean you do know that men and women are different - right? I simply don't see a problem - no minimization is necessary.
                      Last edited by seer; 01-20-2019, 03:02 PM.
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        OK, we were speaking of sports, which sports can women generally or often beat men?
                        Why on earth is that an issue?

                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        What actually would that look like? How would you line up, for instance, a professional female weightlifter with a male. What would that look like?
                        It would look like a woman competing with a man.

                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        Then what are you taking about?

                        I mean you do know that men and women are different - right? I simply don't see a problem - no minimization is necessary.
                        OK - I'm going to disconnect from this discussion. It's bordering on the ridiculous. What I have gleaned is that Seer and Pix would like to see competition continue to be based on the genitalia the people happen to possess - and I would like to see competition based on the capabilities of the individual, as far as that is possible to do. I'm not a big believer in locking people into boxes when it is on the basis of a meaningless distinction.

                        Last word to the two of you.
                        Last edited by carpedm9587; 01-20-2019, 03:58 PM.
                        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post

                          It would look like a woman competing with a man.
                          I don't know what that means, women don't go into the NBA or NFL because they are not good enough. There is no rule I know of that prevents them from trying out.

                          OK - I'm going to disconnect from this discussion. It's bordering on the ridiculous. What I have gleaned is that Seer and Pix would like to see competition continue to be based on the genitalia the people happen to possess - and I would like to see competition based on the capabilities of the individual, as far as that is possible to do. I'm not a big believer in locking people into boxes when it is on the basis of a meaningless distinction.
                          Here is an example. Both women and men can run in the Boston Marathon. And yes some women can beat some men - but a woman will never win it, the top female runners are not even close to the top males. And never will be - it is genetics. I just don't get this whole egalitarian line of reasoning, or why it is needed.
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                            Based on the rather obvious reality that how far someone can hit a ball is going to be related to their strength. Do you think it is otherwise? If so - what do you think it is related to?
                            Golf also requires an accurate hit too, but you’re just being overly complex for the sake of it. How much money would it cost? How do you divide up the classes? Is there enough golf players to even make such a system work? Will golf players and fans accept such a major change? You’re trying to make it really complex for really no reason and just adding problems for an issue that will likely not be solved anyway. Women players will likely not be ranked with the men with maybe a handful of exceptions, at best.

                            "It's always been that way" is seldom a useful rationalization. It usually causes us to stop questioning.
                            Sports have fans that get rather testy if major rules change. I take it you don’t know many sports fans. Present your plan to a professional golf fan and see how well they like it. Besides, people don’t play professional sports because they are bad at it. They play because they are the best and don’t always react well to major changes either. Especially one they would likely see as simply a way to get women to play by lowering standards. It’s pretty obvious you really know nothing about professional sports.

                            Which is why I recommended a strength-based classification, not a weight-based classification (specifically for golfing).
                            Why? Do you not see the problems I have listed? It’s pretty obvious you know next to nothing how professional sports works, but will continue to present ideas based in ignorance. What is the demand on the fan level? Will players react well to rule changes clearly designed to cater to one group? Will the fans react well? What sort of test would be required? Sounds like you haven’t thought this through well at all.

                            Since the issue at hand is "how far can they hit a ball," I would think the classification would be related to that - unless someone has a better idea.
                            How much do you know about golf? Anything at all?

                            Since this has nothing to do with my hypothesis, the evidence you are asking for is inapplicable. The hypothesis is: "if we eliminate the negative messaging, we will likely see a narrowing between the abilities of men and women." To test the hypothesis, we would need a means of having a group that is not subject to this messaging, and we would need to measure their performance against a control group that does receive that messaging. The latter group is all around us. The former group is more difficult to create - which is probably why I know of no studies that have attempted to quantify this. So I cannot definitively say "it would happen," and you cannot definitively say, "it would not happen." The best we can say is, "I think it sounds reasonable - but we have no hard evidence for or against the proposition."
                            Or you’re just trying to invent excuses so you can ignore biology. I grew up with brothers and didn’t have that whole ‘Girls suck at sports’ upbringing. I can throw and catch a baseball, with accuracy. I had a glove too and my dad never thought his daughter shouldn’t play sports. It’s not too difficult to get that my brothers can throw a baseball further and faster, despite having similar training. The reason is easy, women have around 1/3 less upper body strength and around 1/3 less leg strength too. In a physical competition where strength is important who will come out on top? Deny and make any excuse you want, the biological component makes it pretty obvious and your excuse for the total lack of evidence to support your claim is pretty hollow. Women can’t compete in physical strength competitions vs men and no amount of sociological girl power will change that.

                            We do have some soft evidence. In general, we know that negative messaging negatively impacts outcomes in many areas. Not always mind you. Sometimes, and for some people, it can be a challenge to excel (e.g., boot camp). But if you take a child and expose them to primarily negative messaging, you generally get negative outcomes. I suspect that is the issue here.
                            And again, never had that upbringing and yet still unable to beat male runners in run times. Of course, the problem with your evidence is there isn’t any real cognitive differences between say, men and women or whites and blacks. The fact women and blacks are doing better in education is a pretty good indication of this fact. However, there’s real biological differences between women and men that goes deeper than merely sociological differences. The reality is without some rather large leaps in medical science, men are going to have strength advantages that are larger than merely psychological differences that no amount of, ‘You can do it’ can overcome.
                            "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                            GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                              Golf also requires an accurate hit too, but you’re just being overly complex for the sake of it.
                              Anyone who has ever played golf cannot help but notice the often huge difference between where the men's tees are placed and where the women's tees are placed. If I could play from the women's tees I think it would be highly likely I could finally break 90.

                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                                Why on earth is that an issue?



                                It would look like a woman competing with a man.



                                OK - I'm going to disconnect from this discussion. It's bordering on the ridiculous. What I have gleaned is that Seer and Pix would like to see competition continue to be based on the genitalia the people happen to possess - and I would like to see competition based on the capabilities of the individual, as far as that is possible to do. I'm not a big believer in locking people into boxes when it is on the basis of a meaningless distinction.

                                Last word to the two of you.
                                Run away and declare victory, that’s the Carp way. In reality this discussion
                                is about biological difference between men and women and among those is differences in strength. Men are biologically stronger and refusing to accept that fact and try to declare you’re right shows you’re not here to discuss anything. Your mind is made up, don’t confuse you with the facts. go to the gym and run regularly and I know, based on that experience, that I can’t keep up with men my same age and fitness level. My best 1.5 mile run time is a 10:58 when I was 22 and I was spent after that run. I know men that same age that can do that regularly without nearly passing out in the process and do it 30 seconds faster. What do I know though? I’ve only been in the military for over a decade and have seen how wrong you are every PT day. Apparently, accepting that observed and biological detail is ‘putting people into boxes’ whatever you need to tell yourself so you can ignore reality and buy into your dreamland.
                                Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 01-21-2019, 06:27 PM.
                                "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                                GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

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