Originally posted by KingsGambit
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The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostOr the same could be achieved by basing the class on strength rather than sex. There are many ways to measure strength - which is the actual issue. That would also sort men into such classes, evening the playing field in much the same way it is done for boxing.
No - I didn't suggest anything of the kind. You are misreading my posts."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostWhich will likely give you men in one corner and women in another. Even at that, people were already sorted going professional. Professional players are professionals for a reason.
Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostSo what are you suggesting?The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI suspect it will give us several "levels" of golfing (as it does boxing) with men only occupying the top tiers and a combination of men and women occupying lower tiers. But we won't know, of course, until we try it.
I'm suggesting exactly what I said: a continual barrage of "you aren't as strong/fast as men" has at least the potential to create what it predicts. We have no way of knowing, at this point, just how much the gap between men and women could be narrowed if that messaging changed and there were more opportunities for women and men to compete on an equal footing - with no fixed boundaries based on sex. Intuitively, it seems reasonable to believe at least some degree of narrowing would occur, based on our experience with "negative messaging" in other venues."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostTreating different sports as though they are all the same is silliness to the nth degree.
Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostBoxers have reasons for weight classes because the weight difference can have a pretty large impact on who wins and loses. Golf is not a contact sport and golfers are not fighters. How many 200 lbs golfers have you known? If you haven’t noticed, golfers are pretty skinny and I doubt weight classes would make sense in golf since golf is as much about your accuracy as it is raw strength.
Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostShow me 10 women athletes that have equal records to the men.
Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostAs it had been pointed out, one of the best female kickers is no match for her male counterparts. Same is true in almost every sport and if this isn’t true, show otherwise.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostAgain with a superlative. I didn't say sports were all the same. I provided one possibility with golf and used boxing as an analogy. Since the issue is distance - which is related to strength, I find the approach to have some potential.
Which is why I recommended a strength-based distinction rather than a weight-based one.
Why do I need to do that?
Since I have not made this claim, I see no reason to defend it."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostThat’s an assumption based on what?
Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostSports developed the way they are today for a reason.
Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostEven at that, men still enjoy strength advantages, even at the around the same weight because males have more muscle mass. This is again, a biological fact.
Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostAnd how do you measure it? Leg? Lifting? Pulling? Running? Good luck with your set up since almost everyone is going to differ on these measurements.
Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostFor your hypothesis to have some merit, you should have some evidence. Do you?
We do have some soft evidence. In general, we know that negative messaging negatively impacts outcomes in many areas. Not always mind you. Sometimes, and for some people, it can be a challenge to excel (e.g., boot camp). But if you take a child and expose them to primarily negative messaging, you generally get negative outcomes. I suspect that is the issue here.Last edited by carpedm9587; 01-20-2019, 01:34 PM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostWhere they set the standards is irrelevant to me, as long as the standards are the same for everyone. In many instances, the standards more or less set themselves. If I am looking for the best available, and I have 20 openings - then my "standard" will be the capability of the 20th-best person I interview/test.
We seem to agree. I suspect that many sports could be arranged in weight classes: boxing, weight lifting, football, etc. Essentially any sport that is based on strength. More skill-based sports would seem to me to require no sorting. I have never understood why we have to have a woman's golf circuit and a men's golf circuit. I have to wonder if tennis needs to be organized by sex. Many things are the way they are for no other reason than they've always been that way.
And I would dearly love to have someone study the degree to which our culture and norms contribute to this "women cannot be as strong or fast as men." I'm not sure how that would be done - but I cannot imagine that the impact is zero. I'm sure biology would lead to some degree of difference - but I wonder how much that gap would narrow if we didn't continually pound home the "women are weaker and slower than men" theme.Last edited by seer; 01-20-2019, 02:15 PM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostNo, like in the military, we have specific physical requirements for reasons. So these are not irrelevant questions.
Originally posted by seer View PostWomen generally can not compete with men.
Originally posted by seer View PostWhat, are you going to give the lady tennis player 10 points over the man to start?
Originally posted by seer View PostMake a 125lb male boxer fight a 200lb female boxer?
Originally posted by seer View PostThat would be a logistical mess, and unnecessary.
Originally posted by seer View PostNo Carp, if you look at the weight and strength and size and aggression of our closest primates you see the same differences. It is biology that is generally defining culture not the other way around.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostHorse hockey - even "generally." Your statement is FAR too broad. There are many venues in which women can compete with men.
No - I would try to find ways to segment competing populations by something other than sexual apparatus. We have a model for this in the boxing world (although that world still segments by sex as well).
I doubt that would be necessary.
I did not suggest that culture was "defining" biology I was suggesting that culture is "affecting" biology. I think it would be worthwhile to seek to minimize that effect and treat all people based on their potential rather than their sex.Last edited by seer; 01-20-2019, 03:02 PM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostOK, we were speaking of sports, which sports can women generally or often beat men?
Originally posted by seer View PostWhat actually would that look like? How would you line up, for instance, a professional female weightlifter with a male. What would that look like?
Originally posted by seer View PostThen what are you taking about?
I mean you do know that men and women are different - right? I simply don't see a problem - no minimization is necessary.
Last word to the two of you.Last edited by carpedm9587; 01-20-2019, 03:58 PM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
Comment
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
It would look like a woman competing with a man.
OK - I'm going to disconnect from this discussion. It's bordering on the ridiculous. What I have gleaned is that Seer and Pix would like to see competition continue to be based on the genitalia the people happen to possess - and I would like to see competition based on the capabilities of the individual, as far as that is possible to do. I'm not a big believer in locking people into boxes when it is on the basis of a meaningless distinction.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostBased on the rather obvious reality that how far someone can hit a ball is going to be related to their strength. Do you think it is otherwise? If so - what do you think it is related to?
"It's always been that way" is seldom a useful rationalization. It usually causes us to stop questioning.
Which is why I recommended a strength-based classification, not a weight-based classification (specifically for golfing).
Since the issue at hand is "how far can they hit a ball," I would think the classification would be related to that - unless someone has a better idea.
Since this has nothing to do with my hypothesis, the evidence you are asking for is inapplicable. The hypothesis is: "if we eliminate the negative messaging, we will likely see a narrowing between the abilities of men and women." To test the hypothesis, we would need a means of having a group that is not subject to this messaging, and we would need to measure their performance against a control group that does receive that messaging. The latter group is all around us. The former group is more difficult to create - which is probably why I know of no studies that have attempted to quantify this. So I cannot definitively say "it would happen," and you cannot definitively say, "it would not happen." The best we can say is, "I think it sounds reasonable - but we have no hard evidence for or against the proposition."
We do have some soft evidence. In general, we know that negative messaging negatively impacts outcomes in many areas. Not always mind you. Sometimes, and for some people, it can be a challenge to excel (e.g., boot camp). But if you take a child and expose them to primarily negative messaging, you generally get negative outcomes. I suspect that is the issue here."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostGolf also requires an accurate hit too, but you’re just being overly complex for the sake of it.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostWhy on earth is that an issue?
It would look like a woman competing with a man.
OK - I'm going to disconnect from this discussion. It's bordering on the ridiculous. What I have gleaned is that Seer and Pix would like to see competition continue to be based on the genitalia the people happen to possess - and I would like to see competition based on the capabilities of the individual, as far as that is possible to do. I'm not a big believer in locking people into boxes when it is on the basis of a meaningless distinction.
Last word to the two of you.
is about biological difference between men and women and among those is differences in strength. Men are biologically stronger and refusing to accept that fact and try to declare you’re right shows you’re not here to discuss anything. Your mind is made up, don’t confuse you with the facts. go to the gym and run regularly and I know, based on that experience, that I can’t keep up with men my same age and fitness level. My best 1.5 mile run time is a 10:58 when I was 22 and I was spent after that run. I know men that same age that can do that regularly without nearly passing out in the process and do it 30 seconds faster. What do I know though? I’ve only been in the military for over a decade and have seen how wrong you are every PT day. Apparently, accepting that observed and biological detail is ‘putting people into boxes’ whatever you need to tell yourself so you can ignore reality and buy into your dreamland.Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 01-21-2019, 06:27 PM."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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