South Dakota Transgender Bill...

[Cow Poke]

Commercial purposes for starters. Why do professional sports exist?

I'm curious if you've encountered, in your military experience, talk of the female fighter pilot who was killed in an accident trying to land an F-14 on the Abraham Lincoln.

I don't remember if it was THAT incident, or a similar incident (because I remembered as taking off, not landing) where a Naval officer initially indicated that "rushing her through training to be the first combat pilot" could have been a factor, then the narrative got changed and that story disappeared.

The case, as I recall, was not that 'women can't fly combat aircraft', but that the rush to get her through training, despite a number of indicators she wasn't quite ready, could have been a factor in her death.

[lilpixieofterror]

I'm curious if you've encountered, in your military experience, talk of the female fighter pilot who was killed in an accident trying to land an F-14 on the Abraham Lincoln.

I don't remember if it was THAT incident, or a similar incident (because I remembered as taking off, not landing) where a Naval officer initially indicated that "rushing her through training to be the first combat pilot" could have been a factor, then the narrative got changed and that story disappeared.

The case, as I recall, was not that 'women can't fly combat aircraft', but that the rush to get her through training, despite a number of indicators she wasn't quite ready, could have been a factor in her death.

It sure is a possibility, but considering several women have successfully been fighter pilots and have flown combat missions, I’d say that is indeed a good possibility.

[lilpixieofterror]

Commercial purposes for starters. Why do professional sports exist?

I think I need to eleborate on this more. Professional sports is already fumbled out so you only end up with the best at the professional level. To point this out let’s take baseball.

There’s around 750 professional baseball players with around 500 inactive in the MiLB, that will play this coming season. This is figured with every team having its max active roster of 25 with 30 teams and 15 inactive players per team.

In the NCAA college division there’s 299 teams with a roster of 27. That gives us around 8,073 players. It’s estimated that thereÂ’s 50,000 college players that are not part of the NCAA.

Now most MLB teams have minor league teams they recruit from too. I find there’s 256 affiliated teams and itÂ’s a little weird here since MLB inactive rosters will allow players to be pulled in to fill in gaps as needed. That makes around 8,000 players.

Now high school level I find thereÂ’s estimated to be around 140,000 that could be picked up in college or the minors.

So what is the odds of being a major league player? This is why your plan won’t work. Sports already separates and categories people and funnels them to get the best in the professional level.

[carpedm9587]

In the example I was giving --- the "standard" was that you are able to drag a 200lb man 30 yards, but that standard was "dumbed down" to require the weight be 175lbs for 20 yards.

And I responded to this. If the standard was reduced because the original standard was artificially high as a mechanism of weeding through applicants - it should be adjusted to what the job actually requires. If the standard was lowered below what the job actually requires to "make it easier for women," that is not acceptable.

The standards were set to simulate real life situations where somebody's life may depend on the proper performance.

If that is true - they should not have been lowered.

Yuh - that's what I said.

Then your complaint is...?

We seem to be agreeing....

[carpedm9587]

Commercial purposes for starters. Why do professional sports exist?

I have no idea how this applies to what I was saying.

And Carp does his usual dodging to avoid having to being wrong about anything.

Folks here pretty regularly read into my posts something I did not put there, or argue against positions I did not take, and then expect me to respond. To that I can only say, "I'm not going to defend a position I didn't take." If that is annoying - then I suggest you converse with someone else.

[lilpixieofterror]

I have no idea how this applies to what I was saying.

Because you come up with these plans that show you don’t know what you’re talking about. Sports already have processes that give them the best. The reason you don’t really see women on theses pro teams, unless they are pro women teams is obvious. Women professional players are at a disadvantage to men professional players and no amount of wishing will change that reality.

Folks here pretty regularly read into my posts something I did not puot there, and then expect me to respond. To that I can only say, "I'm not going to defend a position I didn't take." If that is annoying - then I suggest you converse with someone else.

Which should hint that you’re not as good of a communicator as you think.

[carpedm9587]

Because you come up with these plans that show you don’t know what you’re talking about. Sports already have processes that give them the best. The reason you don’t really see women on theses pro teams, unless they are pro women teams is obvious. Women professional players are at a disadvantage to men professional players and no amount of wishing will change that reality.

Since I never suggested otherwise - I have no further response.

Which should hint that you’re not as good of a communicator as you think.

That is certainly one possibility.

[Cow Poke]

Then your complaint is...?

Only in your wild imagination.

[lilpixieofterror]

Since I never suggested otherwise - I have no further response.

And it’s pointless arguing with you. Your plan isn’t going to accomplish any goal you laid out. You do get that, don’t you?

[carpedm9587]

Only in your wild imagination.

Oh my imagination can be pretty wild!

[carpedm9587]

And it’s pointless arguing with you. Your plan isn’t going to accomplish any goal you laid out. You do get that, don’t you?

No. I disagree with your assumption. I think it is possible to minimize/eliminate sex as the distinction in many sports - if we want to. What I'm gleaning from your posts is that you don't want to. The arguments you keep making don't actually address the points I've made and seem to continually suggest you are arguing against the same position over and over. However, is a position I have never taken. You seem to be arguing against, "if we eliminate the sex boundary in sports (and other areas), and stop telling women they are weaker/slower than men, they will become men's equals."

I never suggested that - nor have I ever taken that position. So your continuing arguments against it are somewhat pointless - you're arguing against a position I did not take. That happens a lot around here. It's one of the two primary reasons I have historically said, "I'll leave the last word to you." It's rather silly to argue a position I do not have - so when the other person just keeps responding to positions I don't have, the discussion becomes pointless (to me).

I admit that I do tend to hang in longer than I probably should, trying to get the person to see my actual position. I probably should just bail after the first couple tries.

[lilpixieofterror]

No. I disagree with your assumption. I think it is possible to minimize/eliminate sex as the distinction in many sports - if we want to. What I'm gleaning from your posts is that you don't want to. The arguments you keep making don't actually address the points I've made and seem to continually suggest you are arguing against the same position over and over. However, is a position I have never taken. You seem to be arguing against, "if we eliminate the sex boundary in sports (and other areas), and stop telling women they are weaker/slower than men, they will become men's equals."

I never suggested that - nor have I ever taken that position. So your continuing arguments against it are somewhat pointless - you're arguing against a position I did not take. That happens a lot around here. It's one of the two primary reasons I have historically said, "I'll leave the last word to you." It's rather silly to argue a position I do not have - so when the other person just keeps responding to positions I don't have, the discussion becomes pointless (to me).

I admit that I do tend to hang in longer than I probably should, trying to get the person to see my actual position. I probably should just bail after the first couple tries.

No, what I am getting is that you have no clue how sports runs and yet try to declare yourself an expert in something you know little to nothing about. I grew up around sports and I’m not that bad at baseball and do rather well at it on an armature level yet I know there is no way I could come close to even an average MLB player. Hundreds of thousands of kids dream of playing in the pro’s everyday and thousands try out as soon as they can. My mom worked for a MiLB team that was officially affiliated with an MLB team that had players move onto the MLB, but few did. Spring try outs had lots of players looking to make that active roster for a shot at the majors. Most didn’t make it to the minors and even fewer to the majors. Why? The competition is fierce with no shortage of players trying out for their shot with only the best among them making it. At this level, with so few slots any edge is important and women find ourselves at a disadvantage because the edge that men have on the strength is an important edge. Even if the majors had no ban on women players, it’s pretty unlikely that many would make it anyway unless some quota system was put into place and that would anger a lot of players and fans alike.

[carpedm9587]

No, what I am getting is that you have no clue how sports runs and yet try to declare yourself an expert in something you know little to nothing about.

I'm very curious how you come to this conclusion. As with most people, I know a great deal about some sports, and little about others.

I grew up around sports and I’m not that bad at baseball and do rather well at it on an armature level yet I know there is no way I could come close to even an average MLB player. Hundreds of thousands of kids dream of playing in the pro’s everyday and thousands try out as soon as they can. My mom worked for a MiLB team that was officially affiliated with an MLB team that had players move onto the MLB, but few did. Spring try outs had lots of players looking to make that active roster for a shot at the majors. Most didn’t make it to the minors and even fewer to the majors. Why? The competition is fierce with no shortage of players trying out for their shot with only the best among them making it. At this level, with so few slots any edge is important and women find ourselves at a disadvantage because the edge that men have on the strength is an important edge. Even if the majors had no ban on women players, it’s pretty unlikely that many would make it anyway unless some quota system was put into place and that would anger a lot of players and fans alike.

And it is entirely possible that baseball and basketball (and other team sports) are less amenable to eliminating, or even reducing, sex-based distinctions. My point has always been: eliminate/reduce sex-based distinctions wherever/whenever possible. I have given several examples of where I think it can be done. I don't recall ever giving baseball or basketball as an example of a "place where it could be done." I DO think it is worth exploring each and every sport to see what (if anything) can be done in that sport.

And I do wonder to what degree the gap between men and women would close if the social/cultural message was not so strongly "women are weaker/slower than men."

[lilpixieofterror]

I'm very curious how you come to this conclusion. As with most people, I know a great deal about some sports, and little about others.

And yet you say they need to be separated by skill level when they already are.

And it is entirely possible that baseball and basketball (and other team sports) are less amenable to eliminating, or even reducing, sex-based distinctions. My point has always been: eliminate/reduce sex-based distinctions wherever/whenever possible. I have given several examples of where I think it can be done. I don't recall ever giving baseball or basketball as an example of a "place where it could be done." I DO think it is worth exploring each and every sport to see what (if anything) can be done in that sport.

No you gave vague ‘sports’ and tried to use golf as an example while being unaware that men are at an advantage in golf and there’s a reason there’s a male and female golf league. You seem to think this stuff hasn’t been thought about when it has. Any sport, where strength or height are an important part of it will favor men over women. You won’t change really much at all, which is what I keep telling you and you seem to say I’m wrong without ever explaining how. Dividing up sports by sex is a good way to level the field to ensure advantages are kept small. Really, there’s only a hand full of sports where both men and women would be even. Target shooting is one such sport I can think of right away.

And I do wonder to what degree the gap between men and women would close if the social/cultural message was not so strongly "women are weaker/slower than men."

As I keep pointing out, a 33-50% upper body strength disadvantage isn’t a small advantage at all.

[carpedm9587]

And yet you say they need to be separated by skill level when they already are.

Some are separated explicitly by skill levels - some are separated implicitly by skill levels - and pretty much all are separated by sex. The latter is sometimes needlessly done.

By the way - while not a "sports expert" by any stretch of the imagination, I was an avid skier (30 pounds changed that ), have coached H.S. soccer, basketball, and baseball, have worked with my son through track and field with a focus on shot put, discus, and javelin, am on a bowling team, and I'm a mean miniature golfer (OK - that last one is probably not very impressive ). The point is, I am not ignorant of all sports. I do have a little bit of experience that applies. Where I don't know, I tend to say "I don't know."

No you gave vague ‘sports’ and tried to use golf as an example while being unaware that men are at an advantage in golf and there’s a reason there’s a male and female golf league.

Golf is certainly not the sport I know the most about. I probably know as much as the "average" American. My sister and her husband are both avid golfers (and Republicans, by the way). So, out of curiosity - based on the feedback I got here - I asked them if they thought there were any ways that the boundary between men's golf and women's golf could be eliminated - or if they thought it should be. In about five minutes they came up with three ways to reduce or eliminate the boundary, and both agreed it "wouldn't be a bad idea."

At no point have I denied that men are generally stronger - and faster - then women. At no point have I suggested that the top performing female athlete ever has (or could) defeat the top performing male athlete. I have merely suggested that every sport could benefit from some exploration as to how, and to what degree, this can and should be done. This suggestion appears to bother you for some reason.

You seem to think this stuff hasn’t been thought about when it has.

I have said nothing of the sort - nor thought it.

Any sport, where strength or height are an important part of it will favor men over women.

Yes. I have never said otherwise.

You won’t change really much at all, which is what I keep telling you and you seem to say I’m wrong without ever explaining how.

No - I'm saying that we don't know until we ask ourselves the questions and make the attempt.

Dividing up sports by sex is a good way to level the field to ensure advantages are kept small.

I disagree - because I think it has negative ramifications that also need to be considered.

Really, there’s only a hand full of sports where both men and women would be even.

That is quite likely true. But since what I have proposed is not based on "being even," I'm not sure why this is being brought up.

Target shooting is one such sport I can think of right away.

Yes - a good example of a sport where there is no perceivable (to me) reason for a separation.

As I keep pointing out, a 33-50% upper body strength disadvantage isn’t a small advantage at all.

I have never suggested it wasn't. Note, however, that you are taking about averages. As with most things, averages hide the particulars. Therein lies (I think) our disagreement.