A Question of Respect?

[rogue06]

He is an activist. He has apparently lied about his military service. He is Native American. He doesn't appear to be a very pleasant person. It's not clear that he bathes regularly. I don't have the impression he is very educated or articulate.

I'm not exactly sure what it is that I need to say to satisfy you... what would you like me to call him? A hack?

How about what he is? A proven liar who repeatedly misrepresented himself and what happened.

[rogue06]

Call him a big fat liar, just like you call Trump.

Well, Phillips is actually pretty skinny

[rogue06]

Yes - it was. The initial video looked very much like a young man disrespecting an older man. Frankly, it still does.

And there is that Orwellian "face crime" yet again. facepalm3.gif

[rogue06]

Trump is an admitted, chronic, provable liar. So far I have found that Phillips has been misleading/deceptive about one thing - his military service. And the outright deception happened once, so I am not even certain he was lying or just slipped up. So no - I'm not going to call him a "big fat liar" until I have cause to know he is.

Trump lies but Phillips may only have been "misleading/deceptive."

First, he lied about more than one thing concerning his military service.

• He lied when he claimed he was a Vietnam veteran
• He lied when he said he was a "recon ranger"
• He lied when his record shows he was "in theater"
• He lied when he said he was honorably discharged

And he told multiple lies about what happened during his encounter in Washington.

• He lied when he said that the Covington students who confronted the Black Hebrew Israelites (BHI) saying that "they were in the process of attacking these four black individuals" that the kids were "beasts" and "These young men were beastly and these old black individuals was their prey."
• He lied when he said that the Covington students approached him (rather than that he walked right up to them), surrounding and taunting him.
• He lied when he said the Covington students were "looking for trouble, looking for something" had a "mob mentality" and that "It was racism. It was hatred. It was scary" when all they were doing was school cheers
• He lied when he said he was merely trying to join his friends at the Lincoln Memorial but the students had him surrounded and wouldn't let him pass.
• He continues to lie when he claims that the Covington students were taunting him by screaming "Build that wall" in his face.

And these are just the blatant, provable lies he told that I can come up with off the top of my head.

[rogue06]

This reminds me of police officers who claim they can tell when someone is lying when, in fact, they're not any better at it than the average person, and in some cases are actually worse because they just "know" the suspect is guilty, so naturally, they can "tell" he's lying when he proclaims his innocence.

To be fair, I thought it was smirk at first, too, but after learning more about the incident and seeing the video, what I see now is an uncomfortable smile. Frankly, he showed far more restraint than I would have at his age.

And more than what many if not most adults would.

[Mountain Man]

From the video I've seen - I cannot tell which occurred. I CAN say that I've seen that look before - and it has never been on an innocent face. But that's as much as I can say.

I see, so despite your claims to the contrary, you do presume intent when it favors your position.

[carpedm9587]

Think really hard about what you're saying here ---- you "research the positions I hold". Perhaps it would be wise to look not just for those things that support your position, but also those things that might disprove your positions.

The information was out there -- it's sad that you had to be dragged kicking and screaming to the TRUTH.

As I said, CP - I dig on the topics I'm engaged in to the degree that I have time. I accept the evidence as I find it and can confirm it (as much as that can be done in this day and age. If I have not found it in a timeline that you find acceptable...

[carpedm9587]

We're making progress!!! I finally got you do admit the guy's not Honest Joe!

A lot of people here seem to like to add things to my post and then take objection. So, at no point did I say "he is honest Joe" or anything similar. What I DID say was that I had no evidence (at the time) to definitively call him a liar. Now it is clear he lies about this issue - because it happens repeatedly. I have no evidence that he is a chronic liar in everything else he does. What I know is that he lies about his service. I don't like it. I don't agree with it. I find it offensive to the people who have served - but I'm not going to take it beyond what it is.

Stay with me, maybe eventually you'll see that this guy is a fraud.

If you have evidence to that effect, by all means present it. I have a conference call in 2 hours and need to take my mom to her doctor's appointment later today. I won't be doing much more research on Phillips or Sandmann today. My apologies if that does not conform to your timeline.

[carpedm9587]

Bull Pucky!!!! My bias has never been hidden - I'm a conservative through and through. But facts are facts, and the information about this fraud is out there.

I started off believing the lie, too - that this poor Native American was being disrespected - but unlike you, I kept digging for the truth, instead of "digging in" and refusing to budge.

From my perspective, it looks like you've found a bit of evidence and translated that into broad vilification of a person you seem to want to hate.

[carpedm9587]

Facts, Data, Evidence.... The man's own words on video...

"I'm a Vietnam Vet. I served in Marine Corps 72 to 76. I got discharged May 5, 1976. I got honorable discharge and one of the boxes shows peacetime or, what my box says is that I was **in theater**. I don't talk much about my Vietnam times."

"I don't wear my veteran stuff here you know. I mean, I got the flag and I showed a couple pictures and I got other things too. I got some littles medallions and medals that were given to me, and I had a lot more stolen from me. You know?"

Outright lies. Fraud.

I think I've noted this - there is now evidence I have seen that convinces me he lies about his tour of service.

[carpedm9587]

Nathan Phillips rally protesters attempted to disrupt Mass at DC’s National Shrine

(bolding mine)

Washington D.C., Jan 22, 2019 / 03:58 pm (CNA).- While demonstrators chanted and played ceremonial drums, protesters at a rally led by Nathan Phillips attempted Jan. 19 to enter Washington, DC’s Basilica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception during a Saturday evening Mass.

The group of demonstrators was stopped by shrine security as it tried to enter the church during a Saturday evening Vigil Mass, according to a shrine security guard on duty during the Mass.

“It was really upsetting,” the guard told CNA.

“There were about 20 people trying to get in, we had to lock the doors and everything.”

The guard said the incident was a disappointment during a busy and joyful weekend for the shrine.

“We had hundreds and hundreds of people from all over the country come here to celebrate life, to celebrate each other together. That a protest tried to come inside during Mass was really the worst.”

The guard told CNA the situation was “tense.”

“I’m just really grateful that nothing too bad happened, they were really angry.”

A source close to the shrine’s leadership corroborated the security guard’s account, telling CNA that during the Mass, Phillips and the group tried to enter the church while playing drums and chanting, and were prohibited from entering the building by security personnel, who locked the main basilica doors with the congregation still inside.

The shrine’s spokeswoman would not initially confirm or deny that the group attempted to enter the Mass. She told CNA Jan. 22 that “a group did assemble on Saturday evening outside the the shrine” and that they “left without incident.”

On Jan. 23, however, the spokeswoman provided to CNA a statement confirming that during a 7:00 p.m. Mass celebrated at the basilica, “a group of approximately 50 individuals attempted to gain entrance to the basilica while chanting and hitting drums.”

“In respect and reverence for the Mass, the individuals were not permitted to enter the Basilica due to the disruption it would have caused during the solemn Mass. The individuals were asked to leave the property after it was determined they did not intend to share in the celebration of Mass.”

Video footage of the demonstration was posted to Facebook by one rally participant.

[CP notes - the video has since been taken down by Facebook]

The video begins as a group including Phillips prepares to approach the main steps of the basilica. One participant announces that the group will march to the front of the shrine for “a non-violent peaceful action.”

Another participant tells the group that if they want to enter the basilica, they can do so if they go “in small groups” to pray.

“Just say you are going to Mass,” a third participant advises, and another demonstrator says the basilica is “a public space.”

As the participants begin walking, one demonstrator advises participants: “I’ll watch the cops.”

The video next shows the group, led by Phillips, ascending the front staircase of the basilica, chanting and playing drums. A smaller group of protesters appears to attempt entering the basilica, while the larger group, estimated by some reports at about 60 people, continues to ascend the front stairs before stopping at a landing.

The participants who attempted to enter the shrine can eventually be seen returning to the larger group of protesters.

A California seminarian, who was not permitted by seminary officials to be publicly identified, spoke to CNA about his experience of the events.

“I was outside when the protesters were coming up the steps of the basilica. I was curious because of the noise and chanting. At first I didn’t take it too seriously, but as they came up the steps we were told to go inside - I was with a group of people from California there for the March for Life. The security people shut the doors and locked them.”

“I was inside and the protesters were banging on the doors.”

On the basilica steps, Mr. Phillips read a statement which said: “We demand that the students of Covington Catholic High School be reprimanded not just by their school officials but, as seniors, by their upcoming universities.”

.....

And here's this lying disgusting fraud trying to get ruin the kids' lives.

If his account that Sandmann blocked him intentionally and confrontationally is true - his "demand" has merit. As for the rest, so a demonstration/protest is not "neat" and "convenient" and that makes the protesters bad? I suspect, Rogue, that if the protesters had been arguing for something you agreed with, inconvenience and disruption wouldn't be all that much of an issue for you.

[carpedm9587]

And that supposed smirk was enough for you to shift the blame to him

As for Orwellian...

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You said more than enough. That was all you needed to convict him of a "face crime."

The combination of the expression, the body language, and the hat is enough for me to suspect the young man of being part of creating the confrontation. Yes.

[carpedm9587]

Indeed.

There is a video recording of him lying through his teeth when he said he was a "Vietnam veteran." This demonstrates beyond any doubt that he deliberately misrepresents his military service. And the fact that virtually every news outlet that interviewed him after the incident also described him as a "Vietnam veteran" rather than "Vietnam era veteran" or "Vietnam times veteran" strongly indicates that he was misrepresenting himself to at least some of them as well, after all it strains credibility past the breaking point to say that they all made the same mistake.

Then there is his lying about being a "recon ranger" when he was in fact a refrigerator mechanic.

Then there is his lying about being dishonorably discharged.

And of course there is his ever-changing stories about what happened during the encounter which are chock full of demonstrable falsehoods (some of which he still continues to willfully disseminate), which serves that he wouldn't know what telling the truth even is.

So I've responded to these points already. I'll let those posts stand.

[carpedm9587]

How about what he is? A proven liar who repeatedly misrepresented himself and what happened.

I have also responded to this.

[carpedm9587]

Trump lies but Phillips may only have been "misleading/deceptive."

First, he lied about more than one thing concerning his military service.

• He lied when he claimed he was a Vietnam veteran
• He lied when he said he was a "recon ranger"
• He lied when his record shows he was "in theater"
• He lied when he said he was honorably discharged

This seems to be a response to a position I held before that evidence surfaced (for me) of him repeatedly lying about his service, so there's not much more for me to say. I've responded to this.

And he told multiple lies about what happened during his encounter in Washington.

• He lied when he said that the Covington students who confronted the Black Hebrew Israelites (BHI) saying that "they were in the process of attacking these four black individuals" that the kids were "beasts" and "These young men were beastly and these old black individuals was their prey."
• He lied when he said that the Covington students approached him (rather than that he walked right up to them), surrounding and taunting him.
• He lied when he said the Covington students were "looking for trouble, looking for something" had a "mob mentality" and that "It was racism. It was hatred. It was scary" when all they were doing was school cheers
• He lied when he said he was merely trying to join his friends at the Lincoln Memorial but the students had him surrounded and wouldn't let him pass.
• He continues to lie when he claims that the Covington students were taunting him by screaming "Build that wall" in his face.

And these are just the blatant, provable lies he told that I can come up with off the top of my head.

Much of this list is a matter of interpretation. For the part that is not, I have not seen that evidence, so I won't have a position until I do. Then, as with him lying about his military service, once I see the evidence, I'll take a position. That probably won't be today.