A Question of Respect?

[Mountain Man]

I'm not a fan of "jumping on parents" or local church leaders...

But you are a fan of "jumping on Trump" even if you have to use specious reasoning to justify it.

[Cow Poke]

Here we disagree. I see all of them as having some responsibility - but I also want to be careful. Kids sometimes "act out" - despite any parenting or guidance they have received. So I'm not a fan of "jumping on parents" or local church leaders until there is evidence that they really did not do what they should have as parents (beyond their children acting out).

I think you might be surprised how many times, when called to the police station to pick up their "child" who had been involved in bad behavior, the 'parents' seem more annoyed that the police messed with their kids than that their kids acted like jackasses.

[carpedm9587]

But you are a fan of "jumping on Trump" even if you have to use specious reasoning to justify it.

I'm a fan of pointing out poor behavior and choices in our leaders when it is manifest.

There is no doubt in my mind that Trump is a vile man. He confirms it daily with his tweets, speeches, and choices. What I find continually amazing is the degree to which conservatives and evangelicals will go to explain away those attributes. IMO, those who continually do so have lost any claim to a moral high ground.

[carpedm9587]

I think you might be surprised how many times, when called to the police station to pick up their "child" who had been involved in bad behavior, the 'parents' seem more annoyed that the police messed with their kids than that their kids acted like jackasses.

Oh I would not be surprised at all, having dealt with that very situation many times. My point was simply that one cannot assume "bad parenting" because a child acts out. IMO, a parent can screw up badly and mess up their children - but the best parenting in the world is not a guarantee that a child will not go astray. There are simply too many other factors. My sister was a marvelous parent, as best I can tell, but her son ended up an addict by age 16 and there was nothing she could do to help him. I was a decent parent, but at one point my youngest son reached 250 pounds (he was 5' 6" at the time) and there was nothing we could do about it. We kept good food in the house, took him to doctor's, had long raised him to see "healthy eating" as important, but between school and friends he kept finding ways to get his hands on sugar and junk food. Short of locking him up - we had no way to control the situation after he reached high school.

Fortunately, three years later, he suddenly locked onto "I want to be healthy" and today he is amazingly fit - with very little trace of fat on any part of his frame, and a physique I have never attained myself.

[Cow Poke]

Oh I would not be surprised at all, having dealt with that very situation many times. My point was simply that one cannot assume "bad parenting" because a child acts out. IMO, a parent can screw up badly and mess up their children - but the best parenting in the world is not a guarantee that a child will not go astray....

Yes.

As the father of a "prodigal daughter" - I used to literally lay awake at nights wondering why one of my daughters was on the "straight and narrow", and her older sister seemed to get into every conceivable "bad thing" imaginable.

In fact, I used to think that my older daughter used to stay up at night pondering "what can I do to make my Dad really REALLY lose it!"

I wondered how the same family with the same parents with the same rules could produce so drastically different offspring.

Fortunately, within the past 6 months, "prodigal daughter" "came to herself" (Luke 15:17) and has made a remarkable change for the better, and grows in Grace every day.

So, yes, you cannot just assume bad parenting when you see bad behavior in kids, and, as I already pointed out, I've seen many times where kids will do as a group what none of those kids would have done as an individual.

[Mountain Man]

I'm a fan of pointing out poor behavior and choices in our leaders when it is manifest.

Then point out the bad behaviour. Don't point to somebody else's bad behaviour and say, "It's Trump's fault!"

[MankyScotsGit]

There's a clip which seems to show the Indigenous guy approach the kids, get in their faces, and tell them to "go back to Europe". I'm not linking to it because I'm not certain if it's authentic or not, but there probably are at least 2 sides to this story.

[Cow Poke]

There's a clip which seems to show the Indigenous guy approach the kids, get in their faces, and tell them to "go back to Europe". I'm not linking to it because I'm not certain if it's authentic or not, but there probably are at least 2 sides to this story.

At least.

[Mountain Man]

Yes.

As the father of a "prodigal daughter" - I used to literally lay awake at nights wondering why one of my daughters was on the "straight and narrow", and her older sister seemed to get into every conceivable "bad thing" imaginable.

In fact, I used to think that my older daughter used to stay up at night pondering "what can I do to make my Dad really REALLY lose it!"

I wondered how the same family with the same parents with the same rules could produce so drastically different offspring.

Fortunately, within the past 6 months, "prodigal daughter" "came to herself" (Luke 15:17) and has made a remarkable change for the better, and grows in Grace every day.

So, yes, you cannot just assume bad parenting when you see bad behavior in kids, and, as I already pointed out, I've seen many times where kids will do as a group what none of those kids would have done as an individual.

My wife and I joke that people should judge us as parents by our most well-behaved kid and not the other two.

But I wasn't saying that I blame the parents in this case, only that if you're going to blame anybody other than the kids themselves then blaming their parents makes more sense than blaming the President.

[Mountain Man]

There's a clip which seems to show the Indigenous guy approach the kids, get in their faces, and tell them to "go back to Europe". I'm not linking to it because I'm not certain if it's authentic or not, but there probably are at least 2 sides to this story.

As King Solomon said, "The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him."

[carpedm9587]

Yes.

As the father of a "prodigal daughter" - I used to literally lay awake at nights wondering why one of my daughters was on the "straight and narrow", and her older sister seemed to get into every conceivable "bad thing" imaginable.

In fact, I used to think that my older daughter used to stay up at night pondering "what can I do to make my Dad really REALLY lose it!"

I wondered how the same family with the same parents with the same rules could produce so drastically different offspring.

Fortunately, within the past 6 months, "prodigal daughter" "came to herself" (Luke 15:17) and has made a remarkable change for the better, and grows in Grace every day.

So, yes, you cannot just assume bad parenting when you see bad behavior in kids, and, as I already pointed out, I've seen many times where kids will do as a group what none of those kids would have done as an individual.

My parenting philosophy has always been, "I can seriously screw up my kids all by my lonesome - but I cannot make them successful all on my lonesome. THAT requires their willingness and engagement.

[carpedm9587]

Then point out the bad behaviour. Don't point to somebody else's bad behaviour and say, "It's Trump's fault!"

At no point did I say that "Trump is to blame for this kid's actions." Trump IS to blame, however, for contributing to an atmosphere where bullying, ridicule, and harassment are considered "acceptable behavior." From the bully pulpit of the White House and the executive office he holds, he demonstrates this behavior on a daily basis.

Trump did not "make this kid do this." But he certainly is guilty of contributing to a culture and society that increasingly leans in that direction.

[carpedm9587]

There's a clip which seems to show the Indigenous guy approach the kids, get in their faces, and tell them to "go back to Europe". I'm not linking to it because I'm not certain if it's authentic or not, but there probably are at least 2 sides to this story.

I have heard this accusation made - including by the child's mother. Despite that - I can not find such a clip anywhere, and the man in question has no history (that I can find) of such behavior. He has been part of this annual march (for indigenous people) for many years, and is a veteran of our wars. Unless someone can provide evidence of the caliber of the video of that young man - I think this kind of post just encourages the "find an excuse for the #MAGA supporters at any cost" to do exactly that - find an excuse.

[carpedm9587]

I also feel that this kind of meme is simply uncalled for. Yes - I think that young man needs to face some serious consequences for his actions. I suspect his face being plastered across the country as the poster boy for bad behavior might be at least part of that consequence. Suggesting that he should have never been born is just unnecessarily ugly.

[Charles]

At no point did I say that "Trump is to blame for this kid's actions." Trump IS to blame, however, for contributing to an atmosphere where bullying, ridicule, and harassment are considered "acceptable behavior." From the bully pulpit of the White House and the executive office he holds, he demonstrates this behavior on a daily basis.

Trump did not "make this kid do this." But he certainly is guilty of contributing to a culture and society that increasingly leans in that direction.

He certainly is. And it should be very easy to see this rather obvious truth though some prefer to not see it.