Could Ezekiel's prophecy about Magog's invasion of Israel be ready to take place?

[xcav8tor]

Ezekiel 36 to 39 describe a series of events to take place in "the Last Days," beginning with the restoration of Israel as a nation (which took place in 1948) after a worldwide dispersion. Israel has since flourished economically and in the last 10 years has developed oil and gas reserves worth $100 billion (providing the spoil given as the motivation for Gog's attack). Currently, Russia, Turkey and Iran (the key allies mentioned in the text) have aligned themselves politically and amassed their combined military forces in Syria just north of Israel (the northern direction from which the prophesied invasion of Israel is to take place). There has been recent earthquake activity in the Golan Heights (one of the interventions God will use to destroy the invaders - along with friendly fire, hail, fire and brimstone). We know this attack has not yet taken place, because Israel has never buried the bodies of any invaders in a valley named, Hamon-Gog near a city called Hamonah. They do not yet exist.

From the Futurist perspective, this invasion could not take place within the 7 year Tribulation Period (the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy, Dan. 9:24-27) because Israel is to use the enemy's weapons as fuel for 7 years - something they will not likely be doing while running for their lives from the antichrist after he turns on them after defiling the rebuild temple in the middle of the Tribulation. This would suggest the invasion of Gog must take place at least 3 1/2 years prior to the beginning of the 7 years of Daniel's 70th week. Btw, Israel has already created all the furniture and implements required to reinstate Mosaic sacrifice (including the Menora, the Altar, the Breastplate and Crown of the High Priest, etc. They have the blueprints and financing ready for the temple, have chosen a High Priest, have reconvened the Sanhedrin, found the ancient anointing oil, procured a pure red heifer, and have said they know where the Ark of the Covenant currently resides).

With all this in mind, what do you think is the likelihood that the invasion of Israel as foretold by the prophet Ezekiel may be "right around the corner"?

Or is all this to be written off as a long, long, long series of mere coincidences?

[One Bad Pig]

IMO, the secular nation-state of Israel has nothing whatever to do with the Israel of prophecy. There was also no such thing as Russia back then (it being well beyond the bounds of civilization), and Turkey is a modern construct.

There may be a Sanhedrin, but I'm confident that only a fringe group considers it to be authoritative. There's also the slight problem of the Dome of the Rock currently occupying the Temple mount.

[Cow Poke]

I, too, have a problem with equating modern day Israel to the Israel of the Bible.

[xcav8tor]

Hi One Bad Pig,

Been a long time. Glad to see you're still here.

IMO, the secular nation-state of Israel has nothing whatever to do with the Israel of prophecy.

There was also no such thing as Russia back then (it being well beyond the bounds of civilization), and Turkey is a modern construct.

Of course, Ezekiel would have described people groups from his day, but they can be translated to modern nations by tracking the people from those areas and the historical use of ancient names. For instance, there is no doubt that ancient Persian is currently the people of Iran. Rosh is Russia, etc. So while Ezekiel wouldn't use today's national names (the people of his day wouldn't know who he was talking about), we can be relatively certain which nations are involved. "From the Uttermost North" is a great clue for Russia, since Moscow itself lies directly north of Jerusalem.

There may be a Sanhedrin, but I'm confident that only a fringe group considers it to be authoritative. There's also the slight problem of the Dome of the Rock currently occupying the Temple mount.

There are a few of ways the Dome of the Rock problem could be resolved. One is that the original site of Solomon's temple was in the City of David, to the west of the Temple Mount (where a church currently sits). If this site is verified, problem solved. Another is that the Dome is not actually where the original temple stood either, and that the new temple could be build around it, leaving the Dome in the Court of the Gentiles. In addition, there are rumors that the Dome itself is currently falling apart (the Muslims are blaming the Jews for deliberately undermining the foundations), so if an earthquake perhaps brought the building down, it may be resolved that way. Time will tell. What we do know is that Daniel (Dan. 9:27), Jesus (Matt. 24:15, 21, 27, 30) Paul (2 Thess. 2:1-4) and John (Rev. 11:1, 2) all spoke of a Jewish temple existing at the time of Christ's return.

[xcav8tor]

I, too, have a problem with equating modern day Israel to the Israel of the Bible.

Cow Poke!

Well, if not modern day Israel, Ezekiel would have to be talking about ancient day Israel. The problem with that is that there is no fulfillment of the prophecy in the past. There is no graveyard called Hamon-Gog or city called Hamonah. Nor is there any Biblical record of an invading force from the north being destroyed by God in such a fashion. If the prophecy did not come to pass, that would mean God had not given it, and Ezekiel would have been stoned as a false prophet.

As I see it, it has to be a future event - involving modern day Israel - or Ezekiel made a false prophecy. That, to me, is unacceptable (as I'm sure it is to you as well).

[Cow Poke]

Cow Poke!

Well, if not modern day Israel, Ezekiel would have to be talking about ancient day Israel. The problem with that is that there is no fulfillment of the prophecy in the past. There is no graveyard called Hamon-Gog or city called Hamonah. Nor is there any Biblical record of an invading force from the north being destroyed by God in such a fashion. If the prophecy did not come to pass, that would mean God had not given it, and Ezekiel would have been stoned as a false prophet.

As I see it, it has to be a future event - involving modern day Israel - or Ezekiel made a false prophecy. That, to me, is unacceptable (as I'm sure it is to you as well).

Great to see you again!

I just don't believe the date (or event) of the constitution of the nation-state of Israel in 1948 should be considered as a trigger to any part of prophecy. (except perhaps as a beginning of the Jews returning to their homeland, which, of course, is drastically different from the Bible Israel)

[One Bad Pig]

Hi One Bad Pig,

Been a long time. Glad to see you're still here.

Right back atcha!
I am very wary of taking apocalyptic imagery literally. As I understand it, in Christian interpretation the Church is the New Jerusalem - in which case we're not talking about literal geography at all. I just got a translation of Didymus the Blind's commentary on Zechariah; I'll take a look at that and get back to you.

Of course, Ezekiel would have described people groups from his day, but they can be translated to modern nations by tracking the people from those areas and the historical use of ancient names. For instance, there is no doubt that ancient Persian is currently the people of Iran.

You'll note I didn't push back on that one.

Rosh is Russia, etc.

This looks suspiciously like "sounds similar, so must be." Across languages, that's a very shaky proposition.

So while Ezekiel wouldn't use today's national names (the people of his day wouldn't know who he was talking about), we can be relatively certain which nations are involved. "From the Uttermost North" is a great clue for Russia, since Moscow itself lies directly north of Jerusalem.

...if you're being strictly literal, yes - which, as I said, I have issues with.

There are a few of ways the Dome of the Rock problem could be resolved. One is that the original site of Solomon's temple was in the City of David, to the west of the Temple Mount (where a church currently sits). If this site is verified, problem solved. Another is that the Dome is not actually where the original temple stood either, and that the new temple could be build around it, leaving the Dome in the Court of the Gentiles.

I've seen fairly convincing evidence that the Dome is centered on the Holy of Holies.

In addition, there are rumors that the Dome itself is currently falling apart (the Muslims are blaming the Jews for deliberately undermining the foundations), so if an earthquake perhaps brought the building down, it may be resolved that way. Time will tell.

There is no possible way that Muslims would allow anything else to be built there even if the Dome did collapse.

What we do know is that Daniel (Dan. 9:27), Jesus (Matt. 24:15, 21, 27, 30) Paul (2 Thess. 2:1-4) and John (Rev. 11:1, 2) all spoke of a Jewish temple existing at the time of Christ's return.

As a preterist, most of those refer to Christ's coming in power to visit destruction on Jerusalem in AD 70. For his part, Paul spoke of us being God's temple (1 Cor 3).

[Littlejoe]

Ezekiel 36 to 39 describe a series of events to take place in "the Last Days," beginning with the restoration of Israel as a nation (which took place in 1948) after a worldwide dispersion. Israel has since flourished economically and in the last 10 years has developed oil and gas reserves worth $100 billion (providing the spoil given as the motivation for Gog's attack). Currently, Russia, Turkey and Iran (the key allies mentioned in the text) have aligned themselves politically and amassed their combined military forces in Syria just north of Israel (the northern direction from which the prophesied invasion of Israel is to take place). There has been recent earthquake activity in the Golan Heights (one of the interventions God will use to destroy the invaders - along with friendly fire, hail, fire and brimstone). We know this attack has not yet taken place, because Israel has never buried the bodies of any invaders in a valley named, Hamon-Gog near a city called Hamonah. They do not yet exist.

From the Futurist perspective, this invasion could not take place within the 7 year Tribulation Period (the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy, Dan. 9:24-27) because Israel is to use the enemy's weapons as fuel for 7 years - something they will not likely be doing while running for their lives from the antichrist after he turns on them after defiling the rebuild temple in the middle of the Tribulation. This would suggest the invasion of Gog must take place at least 3 1/2 years prior to the beginning of the 7 years of Daniel's 70th week. Btw, Israel has already created all the furniture and implements required to reinstate Mosaic sacrifice (including the Menora, the Altar, the Breastplate and Crown of the High Priest, etc. They have the blueprints and financing ready for the temple, have chosen a High Priest, have reconvened the Sanhedrin, found the ancient anointing oil, procured a pure red heifer, and have said they know where the Ark of the Covenant currently resides).

With all this in mind, what do you think is the likelihood that the invasion of Israel as foretold by the prophet Ezekiel may be "right around the corner"?

Or is all this to be written off as a long, long, long series of mere coincidences?

Well, Ezekiel wrote during the Babylonian captivity, so I would think most of his prophecy would have to do with the 2nd Temple, not a possible 3rd temple. Many (most) Amillennial and Orthodox Preterist would see Eze. 36 and the beginning of the Church age or the establishment of the New Covenant when the Messianic Kingdom was established by Christ. Look at Eze. 36:22 - 38. I agree with OBP and CP, I don't think Ezekiel (a contemporary of Jeremiah, Zephaniah and Habakkuk) was writing about a present day Israel but one to come out of the captivity/exile of Babylon and later, Persia.

[rogue06]

Rosh is Russia, etc.

This looks suspiciously like "sounds similar, so must be." Across languages, that's a very shaky proposition.

IIRC, it was the Scofield Reference Bible that popularized the equating of "Rosh" with "Russia" although several decades earlier the conservative Lutheran Old Testament scholar Carl Friedrich Keil brought up the possibility. OTOH, Hastings Dictionary of the Bible, which came out at the same time as Scofield restricts the identification of Rosh to the seventh son of Benjamin.

Probably one of the biggest obstacles to identifying Rosh as Russia is that the name Rosh as a nation did not exist in Ezekiel's time and hasn't since then in that the modern name of Russia comes from a Norse word "Rus" who were an early medieval group of early Vikings which gave their name to the lands of Russia, Ruthenia, and Belarus. So the name roughly dates back to nearly 2000 years after the book of Ezekiel was written.

FWICT (and I may be wrong) the view that Rosh is Russia seems fairly popular among supporters of dispensational premillennialism but even one of its most notable proponents Charles Caldwell Ryrie has argued that "The prince of Rosh" mentioned in some translations of Ezekiel 38:2 is better translated as "the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal" and notes in his own study Bible that

Meshech and Tubal are not linked with a place called Rosh (8) in any other place in the Bible (Gen. 10:2; 1 Chron. 1:5; Isa. 66:19;8 Ezek. 27:13; 32:26), so it is extremely unlikely that in these two cases alone rosh takes on an entirely different meaning from the way it is used elsewhere in the Old Testament.

It should also be noted that Meshech was identified by Flavius Josephus with the Cappadocian "Mosocheni" (Mushki, also associated with Phrygians or Bryges) and their capital Mazaca, which was in central Antolia, not modern Russia.

Just some food for thought.

[xcav8tor]

I've seen fairly convincing evidence that the Dome is centered on the Holy of Holies.

Fair enough, but there is other evidence which suggests otherwise. Consider this. https://youtu.be/vgCyD9AcDp4

I'll try to address some of your other comments asap.

[xcav8tor]

I just don't believe the date (or event) of the constitution of the nation-state of Israel in 1948 should be considered as a trigger to any part of prophecy. (except perhaps as a beginning of the Jews returning to their homeland, which, of course, is drastically different from the Bible Israel)

[Cow Poke]

Hi Cow Poke,

Hmmmm. Well, would you agree that the Old Testament predicted that the Jews would be kicked off the land and be scattered across the earth?:

Deut 28
63 It shall come about that as the Lord delighted over you to prosper you, and multiply you, so the Lord will delight over you to make you perish and destroy you; and YOU WILL BE TORN FROM THE LAND WHERE YOU ARE ENTERING TO POSSESS IT. 64 Moreover, THE Lord WILL SCATTER YOU AMONG ALL PEOPLES, FROM ONE END OF THE EARTH TO THE OTHER end of the earth; and there you shall serve other gods, wood and stone, which you or your fathers have not known. 65 AMONG THOSE NATIONS YOU SHALL FIND NO REST, and there will be no resting place for the sole of your foot; but there the Lord will give you a trembling heart, failing of eyes, and despair of soul.

And that it was also predicted that they would return to the land and form a nation again after this worldwide dispersion?:

Deut 30
3 then the LORD YOUR GOD will restore you from captivity, and have compassion on you, and WILL GATHER YOU AGAIN FROM ALL THE PEOPLES WHERE THE LORD YOUR GOD HAS SCATTERED YOU. 4 If your outcasts are AT THE ENDS OF THE EARTH, FROM THERE THE LORD YOUR GOD WILL GATHER YOU, AND from there He will bring you back. 5 The Lord your God will BRING YOU INTO THE LAND WHICH YOUR FATHERS POSSESSED, AND YOU SHALL POSSESS IT; and He will prosper you and multiply you more than your fathers.

You're doing great so far, but you're about to venture into speculation...

I think you're erring on the side of "the Bible has foretold of X, and THIS is the closest we've seen to that YET, so it MUST BE".

It's kinda like somebody telling you there's a really big rock up the road - the biggest one on this road - and you need to stop and see it. Driving up the road, you see a large rock and declare "Wow, that's the biggest rock I've ever seen! This must be IT!" As you get ready to turn around and go back, you see a really REALLY big rock -- the one they were meaning when they said "the biggest rock on this road".

What happens so often is that we see "an event", it can be seen as a fulfillment of prophecy, so we declare "prophecy fulfilled"!

I don't think God's done yet.

[xcav8tor]

Hi One Bad Pig,

I am very wary of taking apocalyptic imagery literally. As I understand it, in Christian interpretation the Church is the New Jerusalem - in which case we're not talking about literal geography at all. I just got a translation of Didymus the Blind's commentary on Zechariah; I'll take a look at that and get back to you.

I agree that some apocalyptic literature uses hyperbole, but the book of Acts is historical narrative. It plainly says that Jesus will return to the Mount of Olives where He physically ascended into heaven in the sight of his disciples. Zechariah says the Lord will return in the Last Days and His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem. So you suggest that while Luke's account tells us Jesus will return literally to the Mount of Olives (we have the angel's word on this), Zechariah wants us to understand that the Lord is only coming figuratively to the Mount of Olives which is figuratively east of Jerusalem? Seems to me the most consistent interpretation is to take both passages literally as describing Christ's visible and physical return.

And what, exactly, has the church being the "New Jerusalem" have to do with Zechariah talking about the mount beside the "Old" Jerusalem? I don't follow.

As a preterist, most of those refer to Christ's coming in power to visit destruction on Jerusalem in AD 70. For his part, Paul spoke of us being God's temple (1 Cor 3).

[xcav8tor]

You're doing great so far, but you're about to venture into speculation...

I think you're erring on the side of "the Bible has foretold of X, and THIS is the closest we've seen to that YET, so it MUST BE".

It's kinda like somebody telling you there's a really big rock up the road - the biggest one on this road - and you need to stop and see it. Driving up the road, you see a large rock and declare "Wow, that's the biggest rock I've ever seen! This must be IT!" As you get ready to turn around and go back, you see a really REALLY big rock -- the one they were meaning when they said "the biggest rock on this road".

What happens so often is that we see "an event", it can be seen as a fulfillment of prophecy, so we declare "prophecy fulfilled"!

I don't think God's done yet.

[xcav8tor]

Hi Rogue06,

Depending on the author, there is some minor disagreement on who the nations in Ezekiel 38 and 39 represent, but as I understand it, they all base their identifications on the Table of Nations from Genesis 10 and the lands which the various descendants of Shem, Ham and Japheth inhabited.

Here are a couple of links with some more detailed information, though they are rather lengthy. Both include a map of who went where and it can be seen that the peoples mentioned by Ezekiel did end up in the region where Russia, Turkey and Iran (the latter being Gog's key Muslim allies) currently reside:

https://www.bible-history.com/maps/2...f-nations.html

http://www.ldolphin.org/ntable.html