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Could Ezekiel's prophecy about Magog's invasion of Israel be ready to take place?

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  • Could Ezekiel's prophecy about Magog's invasion of Israel be ready to take place?

    Ezekiel 36 to 39 describe a series of events to take place in "the Last Days," beginning with the restoration of Israel as a nation (which took place in 1948) after a worldwide dispersion. Israel has since flourished economically and in the last 10 years has developed oil and gas reserves worth $100 billion (providing the spoil given as the motivation for Gog's attack). Currently, Russia, Turkey and Iran (the key allies mentioned in the text) have aligned themselves politically and amassed their combined military forces in Syria just north of Israel (the northern direction from which the prophesied invasion of Israel is to take place). There has been recent earthquake activity in the Golan Heights (one of the interventions God will use to destroy the invaders - along with friendly fire, hail, fire and brimstone). We know this attack has not yet taken place, because Israel has never buried the bodies of any invaders in a valley named, Hamon-Gog near a city called Hamonah. They do not yet exist.

    From the Futurist perspective, this invasion could not take place within the 7 year Tribulation Period (the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy, Dan. 9:24-27) because Israel is to use the enemy's weapons as fuel for 7 years - something they will not likely be doing while running for their lives from the antichrist after he turns on them after defiling the rebuild temple in the middle of the Tribulation. This would suggest the invasion of Gog must take place at least 3 1/2 years prior to the beginning of the 7 years of Daniel's 70th week. Btw, Israel has already created all the furniture and implements required to reinstate Mosaic sacrifice (including the Menora, the Altar, the Breastplate and Crown of the High Priest, etc. They have the blueprints and financing ready for the temple, have chosen a High Priest, have reconvened the Sanhedrin, found the ancient anointing oil, procured a pure red heifer, and have said they know where the Ark of the Covenant currently resides).

    With all this in mind, what do you think is the likelihood that the invasion of Israel as foretold by the prophet Ezekiel may be "right around the corner"?

    Or is all this to be written off as a long, long, long series of mere coincidences?
    Last edited by xcav8tor; 01-22-2019, 03:29 PM.

  • #2
    IMO, the secular nation-state of Israel has nothing whatever to do with the Israel of prophecy. There was also no such thing as Russia back then (it being well beyond the bounds of civilization), and Turkey is a modern construct.

    There may be a Sanhedrin, but I'm confident that only a fringe group considers it to be authoritative. There's also the slight problem of the Dome of the Rock currently occupying the Temple mount.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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    • #3
      I, too, have a problem with equating modern day Israel to the Israel of the Bible.
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • #4
        Hi One Bad Pig,

        Been a long time. Glad to see you're still here.

        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        IMO, the secular nation-state of Israel has nothing whatever to do with the Israel of prophecy.
        Nothing whatever? Then how do you explain Zechariah 12:2, 3, 8-10, "I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. 3 On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves... 8 On that day the Lord will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord going before them. 9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem. 10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son."? This speaks of Israel's repentance IN JERUSALEM at Christ's return. How can this be other than the Israel that exists today since 1948 - the same Jerusalem which virtually "all the nations of the earth" are aligned against today, just as described in this passage?

        And Zech. 14:2-4, "2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south."? This speaks of Christ's return to the mount of Olives IN JERUSALEM, ISRAEL - where He ascended and to which the angel told the disciples He would return (Acts 1:7-12). How can this not be referring to the Israel of today (and therefore the Israel of prophecy)?

        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        There was also no such thing as Russia back then (it being well beyond the bounds of civilization), and Turkey is a modern construct.
        Of course, Ezekiel would have described people groups from his day, but they can be translated to modern nations by tracking the people from those areas and the historical use of ancient names. For instance, there is no doubt that ancient Persian is currently the people of Iran. Rosh is Russia, etc. So while Ezekiel wouldn't use today's national names (the people of his day wouldn't know who he was talking about), we can be relatively certain which nations are involved. "From the Uttermost North" is a great clue for Russia, since Moscow itself lies directly north of Jerusalem.

        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        There may be a Sanhedrin, but I'm confident that only a fringe group considers it to be authoritative. There's also the slight problem of the Dome of the Rock currently occupying the Temple mount.
        There are a few of ways the Dome of the Rock problem could be resolved. One is that the original site of Solomon's temple was in the City of David, to the west of the Temple Mount (where a church currently sits). If this site is verified, problem solved. Another is that the Dome is not actually where the original temple stood either, and that the new temple could be build around it, leaving the Dome in the Court of the Gentiles. In addition, there are rumors that the Dome itself is currently falling apart (the Muslims are blaming the Jews for deliberately undermining the foundations), so if an earthquake perhaps brought the building down, it may be resolved that way. Time will tell. What we do know is that Daniel (Dan. 9:27), Jesus (Matt. 24:15, 21, 27, 30) Paul (2 Thess. 2:1-4) and John (Rev. 11:1, 2) all spoke of a Jewish temple existing at the time of Christ's return.
        Last edited by xcav8tor; 01-22-2019, 04:39 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          I, too, have a problem with equating modern day Israel to the Israel of the Bible.
          Cow Poke!

          Well, if not modern day Israel, Ezekiel would have to be talking about ancient day Israel. The problem with that is that there is no fulfillment of the prophecy in the past. There is no graveyard called Hamon-Gog or city called Hamonah. Nor is there any Biblical record of an invading force from the north being destroyed by God in such a fashion. If the prophecy did not come to pass, that would mean God had not given it, and Ezekiel would have been stoned as a false prophet.

          As I see it, it has to be a future event - involving modern day Israel - or Ezekiel made a false prophecy. That, to me, is unacceptable (as I'm sure it is to you as well).

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by xcav8tor View Post
            Cow Poke!

            Well, if not modern day Israel, Ezekiel would have to be talking about ancient day Israel. The problem with that is that there is no fulfillment of the prophecy in the past. There is no graveyard called Hamon-Gog or city called Hamonah. Nor is there any Biblical record of an invading force from the north being destroyed by God in such a fashion. If the prophecy did not come to pass, that would mean God had not given it, and Ezekiel would have been stoned as a false prophet.

            As I see it, it has to be a future event - involving modern day Israel - or Ezekiel made a false prophecy. That, to me, is unacceptable (as I'm sure it is to you as well).
            Great to see you again!

            I just don't believe the date (or event) of the constitution of the nation-state of Israel in 1948 should be considered as a trigger to any part of prophecy. (except perhaps as a beginning of the Jews returning to their homeland, which, of course, is drastically different from the Bible Israel)
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by xcav8tor View Post
              Hi One Bad Pig,

              Been a long time. Glad to see you're still here.
              Right back atcha!
              Nothing whatever? Then how do you explain Zechariah 12:2, 3, 8-10, "I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. 3 On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves... 8 On that day the Lord will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord going before them. 9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem. 10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son."? This speaks of Israel's repentance IN JERUSALEM at Christ's return. How can this be other than the Israel that exists today since 1948 - the same Jerusalem which virtually "all the nations of the earth" are aligned against today, just as described in this passage?

              And Zech. 14:2-4, "2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south."? This speaks of Christ's return to the mount of Olives IN JERUSALEM, ISRAEL - where He ascended and to which the angel told the disciples He would return (Acts 1:7-12). How can this not be referring to the Israel of today (and therefore the Israel of prophecy)?
              I am very wary of taking apocalyptic imagery literally. As I understand it, in Christian interpretation the Church is the New Jerusalem - in which case we're not talking about literal geography at all. I just got a translation of Didymus the Blind's commentary on Zechariah; I'll take a look at that and get back to you.
              Of course, Ezekiel would have described people groups from his day, but they can be translated to modern nations by tracking the people from those areas and the historical use of ancient names. For instance, there is no doubt that ancient Persian is currently the people of Iran.
              You'll note I didn't push back on that one.
              Rosh is Russia, etc.
              This looks suspiciously like "sounds similar, so must be." Across languages, that's a very shaky proposition.
              So while Ezekiel wouldn't use today's national names (the people of his day wouldn't know who he was talking about), we can be relatively certain which nations are involved. "From the Uttermost North" is a great clue for Russia, since Moscow itself lies directly north of Jerusalem.
              ...if you're being strictly literal, yes - which, as I said, I have issues with.
              There are a few of ways the Dome of the Rock problem could be resolved. One is that the original site of Solomon's temple was in the City of David, to the west of the Temple Mount (where a church currently sits). If this site is verified, problem solved. Another is that the Dome is not actually where the original temple stood either, and that the new temple could be build around it, leaving the Dome in the Court of the Gentiles.
              I've seen fairly convincing evidence that the Dome is centered on the Holy of Holies.

              In addition, there are rumors that the Dome itself is currently falling apart (the Muslims are blaming the Jews for deliberately undermining the foundations), so if an earthquake perhaps brought the building down, it may be resolved that way. Time will tell.
              There is no possible way that Muslims would allow anything else to be built there even if the Dome did collapse.
              What we do know is that Daniel (Dan. 9:27), Jesus (Matt. 24:15, 21, 27, 30) Paul (2 Thess. 2:1-4) and John (Rev. 11:1, 2) all spoke of a Jewish temple existing at the time of Christ's return.
              As a preterist, most of those refer to Christ's coming in power to visit destruction on Jerusalem in AD 70. For his part, Paul spoke of us being God's temple (1 Cor 3).
              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
              sigpic
              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by xcav8tor View Post
                Ezekiel 36 to 39 describe a series of events to take place in "the Last Days," beginning with the restoration of Israel as a nation (which took place in 1948) after a worldwide dispersion. Israel has since flourished economically and in the last 10 years has developed oil and gas reserves worth $100 billion (providing the spoil given as the motivation for Gog's attack). Currently, Russia, Turkey and Iran (the key allies mentioned in the text) have aligned themselves politically and amassed their combined military forces in Syria just north of Israel (the northern direction from which the prophesied invasion of Israel is to take place). There has been recent earthquake activity in the Golan Heights (one of the interventions God will use to destroy the invaders - along with friendly fire, hail, fire and brimstone). We know this attack has not yet taken place, because Israel has never buried the bodies of any invaders in a valley named, Hamon-Gog near a city called Hamonah. They do not yet exist.

                From the Futurist perspective, this invasion could not take place within the 7 year Tribulation Period (the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy, Dan. 9:24-27) because Israel is to use the enemy's weapons as fuel for 7 years - something they will not likely be doing while running for their lives from the antichrist after he turns on them after defiling the rebuild temple in the middle of the Tribulation. This would suggest the invasion of Gog must take place at least 3 1/2 years prior to the beginning of the 7 years of Daniel's 70th week. Btw, Israel has already created all the furniture and implements required to reinstate Mosaic sacrifice (including the Menora, the Altar, the Breastplate and Crown of the High Priest, etc. They have the blueprints and financing ready for the temple, have chosen a High Priest, have reconvened the Sanhedrin, found the ancient anointing oil, procured a pure red heifer, and have said they know where the Ark of the Covenant currently resides).

                With all this in mind, what do you think is the likelihood that the invasion of Israel as foretold by the prophet Ezekiel may be "right around the corner"?

                Or is all this to be written off as a long, long, long series of mere coincidences?
                Well, Ezekiel wrote during the Babylonian captivity, so I would think most of his prophecy would have to do with the 2nd Temple, not a possible 3rd temple. Many (most) Amillennial and Orthodox Preterist would see Eze. 36 and the beginning of the Church age or the establishment of the New Covenant when the Messianic Kingdom was established by Christ. Look at Eze. 36:22 - 38. I agree with OBP and CP, I don't think Ezekiel (a contemporary of Jeremiah, Zephaniah and Habakkuk) was writing about a present day Israel but one to come out of the captivity/exile of Babylon and later, Persia.
                "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by xcav8tor View Post
                  Rosh is Russia, etc.
                  Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                  This looks suspiciously like "sounds similar, so must be." Across languages, that's a very shaky proposition.
                  IIRC, it was the Scofield Reference Bible that popularized the equating of "Rosh" with "Russia" although several decades earlier the conservative Lutheran Old Testament scholar Carl Friedrich Keil brought up the possibility. OTOH, Hastings Dictionary of the Bible, which came out at the same time as Scofield restricts the identification of Rosh to the seventh son of Benjamin.

                  Probably one of the biggest obstacles to identifying Rosh as Russia is that the name Rosh as a nation did not exist in Ezekiel's time and hasn't since then in that the modern name of Russia comes from a Norse word "Rus" who were an early medieval group of early Vikings which gave their name to the lands of Russia, Ruthenia, and Belarus. So the name roughly dates back to nearly 2000 years after the book of Ezekiel was written.

                  FWICT (and I may be wrong) the view that Rosh is Russia seems fairly popular among supporters of dispensational premillennialism but even one of its most notable proponents Charles Caldwell Ryrie has argued that "The prince of Rosh" mentioned in some translations of Ezekiel 38:2 is better translated as "the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal" and notes in his own study Bible that

                  Meshech and Tubal are not linked with a place called Rosh (8) in any other place in the Bible (Gen. 10:2; 1 Chron. 1:5; Isa. 66:19;8 Ezek. 27:13; 32:26), so it is extremely unlikely that in these two cases alone rosh takes on an entirely different meaning from the way it is used elsewhere in the Old Testament.


                  It should also be noted that Meshech was identified by Flavius Josephus with the Cappadocian "Mosocheni" (Mushki, also associated with Phrygians or Bryges) and their capital Mazaca, which was in central Antolia, not modern Russia.

                  Just some food for thought.

                  I'm always still in trouble again

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                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                    I've seen fairly convincing evidence that the Dome is centered on the Holy of Holies.
                    Fair enough, but there is other evidence which suggests otherwise. Consider this. https://youtu.be/vgCyD9AcDp4

                    I'll try to address some of your other comments asap.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      I just don't believe the date (or event) of the constitution of the nation-state of Israel in 1948 should be considered as a trigger to any part of prophecy. (except perhaps as a beginning of the Jews returning to their homeland, which, of course, is drastically different from the Bible Israel)
                      Hi Cow Poke,

                      Hmmmm. Well, would you agree that the Old Testament predicted that the Jews would be kicked off the land and be scattered across the earth?:

                      Deut 28
                      63 It shall come about that as the Lord delighted over you to prosper you, and multiply you, so the Lord will delight over you to make you perish and destroy you; and YOU WILL BE TORN FROM THE LAND WHERE YOU ARE ENTERING TO POSSESS IT. 64 Moreover, THE Lord WILL SCATTER YOU AMONG ALL PEOPLES, FROM ONE END OF THE EARTH TO THE OTHER end of the earth; and there you shall serve other gods, wood and stone, which you or your fathers have not known. 65 AMONG THOSE NATIONS YOU SHALL FIND NO REST, and there will be no resting place for the sole of your foot; but there the Lord will give you a trembling heart, failing of eyes, and despair of soul.

                      And that it was also predicted that they would return to the land and form a nation again after this worldwide dispersion?:

                      Deut 30
                      3 then the LORD YOUR GOD will restore you from captivity, and have compassion on you, and WILL GATHER YOU AGAIN FROM ALL THE PEOPLES WHERE THE LORD YOUR GOD HAS SCATTERED YOU. 4 If your outcasts are AT THE ENDS OF THE EARTH, FROM THERE THE LORD YOUR GOD WILL GATHER YOU, AND from there He will bring you back. 5 The Lord your God will BRING YOU INTO THE LAND WHICH YOUR FATHERS POSSESSED, AND YOU SHALL POSSESS IT; and He will prosper you and multiply you more than your fathers.

                      And if so, wouldn't these Jews who were scattered and returned to the land (against all odds IMO) count as Israel - God's Chosen people?:

                      Ezek. 36
                      8 But you, MOUNTAINS OF ISRAEL, will produce branches and fruit for MY PEOPLE ISRAEL, for THEY WILL SOON COME HOME... 12 I will cause people, MY PEOPLE ISRAEL, TO LIVE ON YOU. They will possess you, and you will be their inheritance; you will never again deprive them of their children...19 I DISPERSED THEM AMONG THE NATIONS, and they were scattered through the countries;... 24 For I will take you out of the nations; I WILL GATHER YOU FROM ALL THE COUNTRIES and BRING YOU BACK into YOUR OWN LAND.

                      Ezek. 37
                      11 Then he said to me: “Son of man, THESE BONES ARE THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL. They say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.’ 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: MY PEOPLE, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I WILL BRING YOU BACK TO THE LAND OF ISRAEL.

                      Isaiah 66
                      8 Who has ever heard of such things? Who has ever seen things like this? CAN A COUNTRY BE BORN IN A DAY OR A NATION BE BROUGHT FORTH IN A MOMENT? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children.

                      We know God still has a future plan for Israel because they have not yet received all that God has promised their nation, and God can never break a promise:

                      Rom.11
                      I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, [a]a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 GOD HAS NOT REJECTED HIS PEOPLE WHOM HE FOREKNEW... 11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!... 25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that A PARTIAL HARDENING has happened to Israel UNTIL THE FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES HAS COME in; 26 AND SO ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED;... 28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 FOR THE GIFTS AND THE CALLING OF GOD ARE IRREVOCABLE.

                      Wouldn't you agree that the above scriptures indicate that today's nation of Israel has to be the one the Bible speaks about existing in the Last Days?

                      If not, please explain why not, and what these scriptures would mean from your point of view.
                      Last edited by xcav8tor; 01-28-2019, 11:30 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by xcav8tor View Post
                        Hi Cow Poke,

                        Hmmmm. Well, would you agree that the Old Testament predicted that the Jews would be kicked off the land and be scattered across the earth?:

                        Deut 28
                        63 It shall come about that as the Lord delighted over you to prosper you, and multiply you, so the Lord will delight over you to make you perish and destroy you; and YOU WILL BE TORN FROM THE LAND WHERE YOU ARE ENTERING TO POSSESS IT. 64 Moreover, THE Lord WILL SCATTER YOU AMONG ALL PEOPLES, FROM ONE END OF THE EARTH TO THE OTHER end of the earth; and there you shall serve other gods, wood and stone, which you or your fathers have not known. 65 AMONG THOSE NATIONS YOU SHALL FIND NO REST, and there will be no resting place for the sole of your foot; but there the Lord will give you a trembling heart, failing of eyes, and despair of soul.

                        And that it was also predicted that they would return to the land and form a nation again after this worldwide dispersion?:

                        Deut 30
                        3 then the LORD YOUR GOD will restore you from captivity, and have compassion on you, and WILL GATHER YOU AGAIN FROM ALL THE PEOPLES WHERE THE LORD YOUR GOD HAS SCATTERED YOU. 4 If your outcasts are AT THE ENDS OF THE EARTH, FROM THERE THE LORD YOUR GOD WILL GATHER YOU, AND from there He will bring you back. 5 The Lord your God will BRING YOU INTO THE LAND WHICH YOUR FATHERS POSSESSED, AND YOU SHALL POSSESS IT; and He will prosper you and multiply you more than your fathers.
                        You're doing great so far, but you're about to venture into speculation...

                        And if so, wouldn't these Jews who were scattered and returned to the land (against all odds IMO) count as Israel - God's Chosen people?:

                        Ezek. 36
                        8 But you, MOUNTAINS OF ISRAEL, will produce branches and fruit for MY PEOPLE ISRAEL, for THEY WILL SOON COME HOME... 12 I will cause people, MY PEOPLE ISRAEL, TO LIVE ON YOU. They will possess you, and you will be their inheritance; you will never again deprive them of their children...19 I DISPERSED THEM AMONG THE NATIONS, and they were scattered through the countries;... 24 For I will take you out of the nations; I WILL GATHER YOU FROM ALL THE COUNTRIES and BRING YOU BACK into YOUR OWN LAND.

                        Ezek. 37
                        11 Then he said to me: “Son of man, THESE BONES ARE THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL. They say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.’ 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: MY PEOPLE, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I WILL BRING YOU BACK TO THE LAND OF ISRAEL.

                        Isaiah 66
                        8 Who has ever heard of such things? Who has ever seen things like this? CAN A COUNTRY BE BORN IN A DAY OR A NATION BE BROUGHT FORTH IN A MOMENT? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children.

                        We know God still has a future plan for Israel because they have not yet received all that God has promised their nation, and God can never break a promise:

                        Rom.11
                        I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, [a]a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 GOD HAS NOT REJECTED HIS PEOPLE WHOM HE FOREKNEW... 11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!... 25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that A PARTIAL HARDENING has happened to Israel UNTIL THE FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES HAS COME in; 26 AND SO ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED;... 28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 FOR THE GIFTS AND THE CALLING OF GOD ARE IRREVOCABLE.

                        Wouldn't you agree that the above scriptures indicate that today's nation of Israel has to be the one the Bible speaks about existing in the Last Days?

                        If not, please explain why not, and what these scriptures would mean from your point of view.
                        I think you're erring on the side of "the Bible has foretold of X, and THIS is the closest we've seen to that YET, so it MUST BE".

                        It's kinda like somebody telling you there's a really big rock up the road - the biggest one on this road - and you need to stop and see it. Driving up the road, you see a large rock and declare "Wow, that's the biggest rock I've ever seen! This must be IT!" As you get ready to turn around and go back, you see a really REALLY big rock -- the one they were meaning when they said "the biggest rock on this road".

                        What happens so often is that we see "an event", it can be seen as a fulfillment of prophecy, so we declare "prophecy fulfilled"!

                        I don't think God's done yet.
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hi One Bad Pig,

                          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                          I am very wary of taking apocalyptic imagery literally. As I understand it, in Christian interpretation the Church is the New Jerusalem - in which case we're not talking about literal geography at all. I just got a translation of Didymus the Blind's commentary on Zechariah; I'll take a look at that and get back to you.
                          I agree that some apocalyptic literature uses hyperbole, but the book of Acts is historical narrative. It plainly says that Jesus will return to the Mount of Olives where He physically ascended into heaven in the sight of his disciples. Zechariah says the Lord will return in the Last Days and His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem. So you suggest that while Luke's account tells us Jesus will return literally to the Mount of Olives (we have the angel's word on this), Zechariah wants us to understand that the Lord is only coming figuratively to the Mount of Olives which is figuratively east of Jerusalem? Seems to me the most consistent interpretation is to take both passages literally as describing Christ's visible and physical return.

                          And what, exactly, has the church being the "New Jerusalem" have to do with Zechariah talking about the mount beside the "Old" Jerusalem? I don't follow.

                          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                          As a preterist, most of those refer to Christ's coming in power to visit destruction on Jerusalem in AD 70. For his part, Paul spoke of us being God's temple (1 Cor 3).
                          Paul is clearly using figurative language when he compares the church to being a temple indwelt by God. These prophecies are a different matter altogether.

                          Daniel 9:26 states that, "The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary" and this literally took place in 70 A.D. when the Romans under Titus destroyed the city and the temple of Jerusalem. In the very next verse we are told that in the last 7 years, the ruler will stop the temple sacrifice and set up an abomination in the temple: "In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation." So why would verse 26 be talking about a real, physical temple, and the very next verse be talking about a figurative one? What is there in the context that would suggest such a radical literary change? And what precisely are we supposed to understand is meant by this figurative abomination in this figurative temple?

                          In Matt. 24, Jesus warns the Jews at the time that when they see this "abomination" spoken of by Daniel in the temple, that they are to run for their lives. If this temple isn't literal, how are they supposed to recognize where this abomination is to take place?

                          In 2 Thess. 2, Paul warns that the "Man of Lawlessness" will sit in the temple to proclaim himself to be God. It has to be a future, rebuilt 3rd temple (after all, Jesus is going to appear and personally destroy this person at His 2nd Coming when we are "gathered to Him" - vs 1, 2, 8 - which did not take place in 70 A.D.). If Paul meant the Church as God's "temple" in this passage we would have to somehow envision the antichrist proclaiming himself to be God from inside the true Body of Christ!

                          When the Apostle John wrote the Revelation in 95(ish) A.D., the temple in Jerusalem had already been burned to the ground 20+ years earlier. He even refers to the martyrdom of Antipas in Pergamum (92 A.D.) as past tense in Rev 2:13. If John wrote the Revelation in Nero's day prior to Jerusalem's destruction (as Preterists assert), Antipas' death would be a future event. This being the case, when John wrote of the temple being measured in chapter 11:1-3, he must have been referring to a future, rebuilt temple which will exist prior to Christ's 2nd coming.

                          Because scripture decidedly points to the existence of a future Jewish temple, I find it most significant that the Temple Institute in Jerusalem has made all the preparations necessary to reconvene the Mosaic sacrificial system as soon as a new temple can be constructed.
                          Last edited by xcav8tor; 01-28-2019, 03:52 PM.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            You're doing great so far, but you're about to venture into speculation...

                            I think you're erring on the side of "the Bible has foretold of X, and THIS is the closest we've seen to that YET, so it MUST BE".

                            It's kinda like somebody telling you there's a really big rock up the road - the biggest one on this road - and you need to stop and see it. Driving up the road, you see a large rock and declare "Wow, that's the biggest rock I've ever seen! This must be IT!" As you get ready to turn around and go back, you see a really REALLY big rock -- the one they were meaning when they said "the biggest rock on this road".

                            What happens so often is that we see "an event", it can be seen as a fulfillment of prophecy, so we declare "prophecy fulfilled"!

                            I don't think God's done yet.

                            Hi Cow Poke,

                            I realize that we must be careful not to "jump the gun" as it were, but if the current state of Israel is not the fulfillment of these prophecies about a return from a worldwide dispersion, then it would seem there would have to be yet another exile of the Jews followed by another restoration - the "bigger rock" of which you speak.

                            But according to Amos 9, once God's people Israel have been planted on their land, they will never again be uprooted.

                            13 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord,
                            “When the plowman will overtake the reaper
                            And the treader of grapes him who sows seed;
                            When the mountains will drip sweet wine
                            And all the hills will be dissolved.
                            14 “Also I will restore the captivity of My people Israel,
                            And they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them;
                            They will also plant vineyards and drink their wine,
                            And make gardens and eat their fruit.
                            15 “I will also plant them on their land,
                            And they will not again be rooted out from their land
                            Which I have given them,”
                            Says the Lord your God.

                            This says to me that the current restoration in 1948 is the final one and can safely be recognized as the fulfillment of these prophecies (achieved miraculously against great odds, btw. No other nation in history has survived more than 500 years of exile and become a nation again). More Jews will, however, continually be added until at Christ's return every Jew on the face of the earth will relocated to the land of Israel (as per Matt. 24:29-31).

                            Do you anticipate that the current nation of Israel will be destroyed by their enemies, driven off the land and dispersed again, only to become the "Biblical" nation again in the distant future? If not, how can you maintain that prophecy does not apply to the current situation? I'm trying to understand your perspective.
                            Last edited by xcav8tor; 01-28-2019, 04:36 PM.

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                            • #15
                              Hi Rogue06,

                              Depending on the author, there is some minor disagreement on who the nations in Ezekiel 38 and 39 represent, but as I understand it, they all base their identifications on the Table of Nations from Genesis 10 and the lands which the various descendants of Shem, Ham and Japheth inhabited.

                              Here are a couple of links with some more detailed information, though they are rather lengthy. Both include a map of who went where and it can be seen that the peoples mentioned by Ezekiel did end up in the region where Russia, Turkey and Iran (the latter being Gog's key Muslim allies) currently reside:

                              https://www.bible-history.com/maps/2...f-nations.html

                              http://www.ldolphin.org/ntable.html
                              Last edited by xcav8tor; 01-28-2019, 05:29 PM.

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