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Thread: Could Ezekiel's prophecy about Magog's invasion of Israel be ready to take place?

  1. #11
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    I just don't believe the date (or event) of the constitution of the nation-state of Israel in 1948 should be considered as a trigger to any part of prophecy. (except perhaps as a beginning of the Jews returning to their homeland, which, of course, is drastically different from the Bible Israel)
    Hi Cow Poke,

    Hmmmm. Well, would you agree that the Old Testament predicted that the Jews would be kicked off the land and be scattered across the earth?:

    Deut 28
    63 It shall come about that as the Lord delighted over you to prosper you, and multiply you, so the Lord will delight over you to make you perish and destroy you; and YOU WILL BE TORN FROM THE LAND WHERE YOU ARE ENTERING TO POSSESS IT. 64 Moreover, THE Lord WILL SCATTER YOU AMONG ALL PEOPLES, FROM ONE END OF THE EARTH TO THE OTHER end of the earth; and there you shall serve other gods, wood and stone, which you or your fathers have not known. 65 AMONG THOSE NATIONS YOU SHALL FIND NO REST, and there will be no resting place for the sole of your foot; but there the Lord will give you a trembling heart, failing of eyes, and despair of soul.

    And that it was also predicted that they would return to the land and form a nation again after this worldwide dispersion?:

    Deut 30
    3 then the LORD YOUR GOD will restore you from captivity, and have compassion on you, and WILL GATHER YOU AGAIN FROM ALL THE PEOPLES WHERE THE LORD YOUR GOD HAS SCATTERED YOU. 4 If your outcasts are AT THE ENDS OF THE EARTH, FROM THERE THE LORD YOUR GOD WILL GATHER YOU, AND from there He will bring you back. 5 The Lord your God will BRING YOU INTO THE LAND WHICH YOUR FATHERS POSSESSED, AND YOU SHALL POSSESS IT; and He will prosper you and multiply you more than your fathers.

    And if so, wouldn't these Jews who were scattered and returned to the land (against all odds IMO) count as Israel - God's Chosen people?:

    Ezek. 36
    8 But you, MOUNTAINS OF ISRAEL, will produce branches and fruit for MY PEOPLE ISRAEL, for THEY WILL SOON COME HOME... 12 I will cause people, MY PEOPLE ISRAEL, TO LIVE ON YOU. They will possess you, and you will be their inheritance; you will never again deprive them of their children...19 I DISPERSED THEM AMONG THE NATIONS, and they were scattered through the countries;... 24 For I will take you out of the nations; I WILL GATHER YOU FROM ALL THE COUNTRIES and BRING YOU BACK into YOUR OWN LAND.

    Ezek. 37
    11 Then he said to me: “Son of man, THESE BONES ARE THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL. They say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.’ 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: MY PEOPLE, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I WILL BRING YOU BACK TO THE LAND OF ISRAEL.

    Isaiah 66
    8 Who has ever heard of such things? Who has ever seen things like this? CAN A COUNTRY BE BORN IN A DAY OR A NATION BE BROUGHT FORTH IN A MOMENT? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children.

    We know God still has a future plan for Israel because they have not yet received all that God has promised their nation, and God can never break a promise:

    Rom.11
    I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, [a]a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 GOD HAS NOT REJECTED HIS PEOPLE WHOM HE FOREKNEW... 11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!... 25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that A PARTIAL HARDENING has happened to Israel UNTIL THE FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES HAS COME in; 26 AND SO ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED;... 28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 FOR THE GIFTS AND THE CALLING OF GOD ARE IRREVOCABLE.

    Wouldn't you agree that the above scriptures indicate that today's nation of Israel has to be the one the Bible speaks about existing in the Last Days?

    If not, please explain why not, and what these scriptures would mean from your point of view.
    Last edited by xcav8tor; 01-28-2019 at 09:30 AM.

  2. #12
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xcav8tor View Post
    Hi Cow Poke,

    Hmmmm. Well, would you agree that the Old Testament predicted that the Jews would be kicked off the land and be scattered across the earth?:

    Deut 28
    63 It shall come about that as the Lord delighted over you to prosper you, and multiply you, so the Lord will delight over you to make you perish and destroy you; and YOU WILL BE TORN FROM THE LAND WHERE YOU ARE ENTERING TO POSSESS IT. 64 Moreover, THE Lord WILL SCATTER YOU AMONG ALL PEOPLES, FROM ONE END OF THE EARTH TO THE OTHER end of the earth; and there you shall serve other gods, wood and stone, which you or your fathers have not known. 65 AMONG THOSE NATIONS YOU SHALL FIND NO REST, and there will be no resting place for the sole of your foot; but there the Lord will give you a trembling heart, failing of eyes, and despair of soul.

    And that it was also predicted that they would return to the land and form a nation again after this worldwide dispersion?:

    Deut 30
    3 then the LORD YOUR GOD will restore you from captivity, and have compassion on you, and WILL GATHER YOU AGAIN FROM ALL THE PEOPLES WHERE THE LORD YOUR GOD HAS SCATTERED YOU. 4 If your outcasts are AT THE ENDS OF THE EARTH, FROM THERE THE LORD YOUR GOD WILL GATHER YOU, AND from there He will bring you back. 5 The Lord your God will BRING YOU INTO THE LAND WHICH YOUR FATHERS POSSESSED, AND YOU SHALL POSSESS IT; and He will prosper you and multiply you more than your fathers.
    You're doing great so far, but you're about to venture into speculation...

    And if so, wouldn't these Jews who were scattered and returned to the land (against all odds IMO) count as Israel - God's Chosen people?:

    Ezek. 36
    8 But you, MOUNTAINS OF ISRAEL, will produce branches and fruit for MY PEOPLE ISRAEL, for THEY WILL SOON COME HOME... 12 I will cause people, MY PEOPLE ISRAEL, TO LIVE ON YOU. They will possess you, and you will be their inheritance; you will never again deprive them of their children...19 I DISPERSED THEM AMONG THE NATIONS, and they were scattered through the countries;... 24 For I will take you out of the nations; I WILL GATHER YOU FROM ALL THE COUNTRIES and BRING YOU BACK into YOUR OWN LAND.

    Ezek. 37
    11 Then he said to me: “Son of man, THESE BONES ARE THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL. They say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.’ 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: MY PEOPLE, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I WILL BRING YOU BACK TO THE LAND OF ISRAEL.

    Isaiah 66
    8 Who has ever heard of such things? Who has ever seen things like this? CAN A COUNTRY BE BORN IN A DAY OR A NATION BE BROUGHT FORTH IN A MOMENT? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children.

    We know God still has a future plan for Israel because they have not yet received all that God has promised their nation, and God can never break a promise:

    Rom.11
    I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, [a]a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 GOD HAS NOT REJECTED HIS PEOPLE WHOM HE FOREKNEW... 11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!... 25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that A PARTIAL HARDENING has happened to Israel UNTIL THE FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES HAS COME in; 26 AND SO ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED;... 28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 FOR THE GIFTS AND THE CALLING OF GOD ARE IRREVOCABLE.

    Wouldn't you agree that the above scriptures indicate that today's nation of Israel has to be the one the Bible speaks about existing in the Last Days?

    If not, please explain why not, and what these scriptures would mean from your point of view.
    I think you're erring on the side of "the Bible has foretold of X, and THIS is the closest we've seen to that YET, so it MUST BE".

    It's kinda like somebody telling you there's a really big rock up the road - the biggest one on this road - and you need to stop and see it. Driving up the road, you see a large rock and declare "Wow, that's the biggest rock I've ever seen! This must be IT!" As you get ready to turn around and go back, you see a really REALLY big rock -- the one they were meaning when they said "the biggest rock on this road".

    What happens so often is that we see "an event", it can be seen as a fulfillment of prophecy, so we declare "prophecy fulfilled"!

    I don't think God's done yet.
    --- this space intentionally left blank ---

  3. #13
    tWebber
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    Hi One Bad Pig,

    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    I am very wary of taking apocalyptic imagery literally. As I understand it, in Christian interpretation the Church is the New Jerusalem - in which case we're not talking about literal geography at all. I just got a translation of Didymus the Blind's commentary on Zechariah; I'll take a look at that and get back to you.
    I agree that some apocalyptic literature uses hyperbole, but the book of Acts is historical narrative. It plainly says that Jesus will return to the Mount of Olives where He physically ascended into heaven in the sight of his disciples. Zechariah says the Lord will return in the Last Days and His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem. So you suggest that while Luke's account tells us Jesus will return literally to the Mount of Olives (we have the angel's word on this), Zechariah wants us to understand that the Lord is only coming figuratively to the Mount of Olives which is figuratively east of Jerusalem? Seems to me the most consistent interpretation is to take both passages literally as describing Christ's visible and physical return.

    And what, exactly, has the church being the "New Jerusalem" have to do with Zechariah talking about the mount beside the "Old" Jerusalem? I don't follow.

    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    As a preterist, most of those refer to Christ's coming in power to visit destruction on Jerusalem in AD 70. For his part, Paul spoke of us being God's temple (1 Cor 3).
    Paul is clearly using figurative language when he compares the church to being a temple indwelt by God. These prophecies are a different matter altogether.

    Daniel 9:26 states that, "The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary" and this literally took place in 70 A.D. when the Romans under Titus destroyed the city and the temple of Jerusalem. In the very next verse we are told that in the last 7 years, the ruler will stop the temple sacrifice and set up an abomination in the temple: "In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation." So why would verse 26 be talking about a real, physical temple, and the very next verse be talking about a figurative one? What is there in the context that would suggest such a radical literary change? And what precisely are we supposed to understand is meant by this figurative abomination in this figurative temple?

    In Matt. 24, Jesus warns the Jews at the time that when they see this "abomination" spoken of by Daniel in the temple, that they are to run for their lives. If this temple isn't literal, how are they supposed to recognize where this abomination is to take place?

    In 2 Thess. 2, Paul warns that the "Man of Lawlessness" will sit in the temple to proclaim himself to be God. It has to be a future, rebuilt 3rd temple (after all, Jesus is going to appear and personally destroy this person at His 2nd Coming when we are "gathered to Him" - vs 1, 2, 8 - which did not take place in 70 A.D.). If Paul meant the Church as God's "temple" in this passage we would have to somehow envision the antichrist proclaiming himself to be God from inside the true Body of Christ!

    When the Apostle John wrote the Revelation in 95(ish) A.D., the temple in Jerusalem had already been burned to the ground 20+ years earlier. He even refers to the martyrdom of Antipas in Pergamum (92 A.D.) as past tense in Rev 2:13. If John wrote the Revelation in Nero's day prior to Jerusalem's destruction (as Preterists assert), Antipas' death would be a future event. This being the case, when John wrote of the temple being measured in chapter 11:1-3, he must have been referring to a future, rebuilt temple which will exist prior to Christ's 2nd coming.

    Because scripture decidedly points to the existence of a future Jewish temple, I find it most significant that the Temple Institute in Jerusalem has made all the preparations necessary to reconvene the Mosaic sacrificial system as soon as a new temple can be constructed.
    Last edited by xcav8tor; 01-28-2019 at 01:52 PM.

  4. #14
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    You're doing great so far, but you're about to venture into speculation...

    I think you're erring on the side of "the Bible has foretold of X, and THIS is the closest we've seen to that YET, so it MUST BE".

    It's kinda like somebody telling you there's a really big rock up the road - the biggest one on this road - and you need to stop and see it. Driving up the road, you see a large rock and declare "Wow, that's the biggest rock I've ever seen! This must be IT!" As you get ready to turn around and go back, you see a really REALLY big rock -- the one they were meaning when they said "the biggest rock on this road".

    What happens so often is that we see "an event", it can be seen as a fulfillment of prophecy, so we declare "prophecy fulfilled"!

    I don't think God's done yet.

    Hi Cow Poke,

    I realize that we must be careful not to "jump the gun" as it were, but if the current state of Israel is not the fulfillment of these prophecies about a return from a worldwide dispersion, then it would seem there would have to be yet another exile of the Jews followed by another restoration - the "bigger rock" of which you speak.

    But according to Amos 9, once God's people Israel have been planted on their land, they will never again be uprooted.

    13 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord,
    “When the plowman will overtake the reaper
    And the treader of grapes him who sows seed;
    When the mountains will drip sweet wine
    And all the hills will be dissolved.
    14 “Also I will restore the captivity of My people Israel,
    And they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them;
    They will also plant vineyards and drink their wine,
    And make gardens and eat their fruit.
    15 “I will also plant them on their land,
    And they will not again be rooted out from their land
    Which I have given them,”
    Says the Lord your God.

    This says to me that the current restoration in 1948 is the final one and can safely be recognized as the fulfillment of these prophecies (achieved miraculously against great odds, btw. No other nation in history has survived more than 500 years of exile and become a nation again). More Jews will, however, continually be added until at Christ's return every Jew on the face of the earth will relocated to the land of Israel (as per Matt. 24:29-31).

    Do you anticipate that the current nation of Israel will be destroyed by their enemies, driven off the land and dispersed again, only to become the "Biblical" nation again in the distant future? If not, how can you maintain that prophecy does not apply to the current situation? I'm trying to understand your perspective.
    Last edited by xcav8tor; 01-28-2019 at 02:36 PM.

  5. #15
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    Hi Rogue06,

    Depending on the author, there is some minor disagreement on who the nations in Ezekiel 38 and 39 represent, but as I understand it, they all base their identifications on the Table of Nations from Genesis 10 and the lands which the various descendants of Shem, Ham and Japheth inhabited.

    Here are a couple of links with some more detailed information, though they are rather lengthy. Both include a map of who went where and it can be seen that the peoples mentioned by Ezekiel did end up in the region where Russia, Turkey and Iran (the latter being Gog's key Muslim allies) currently reside:

    https://www.bible-history.com/maps/2...f-nations.html

    http://www.ldolphin.org/ntable.html
    Last edited by xcav8tor; 01-28-2019 at 03:29 PM.

  6. #16
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    Hey Guys,

    Where did everybody go?

  7. #17
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xcav8tor View Post
    Hey Guys,

    Where did everybody go?
    Been battling the flu. :sick: When I can think straight again, I'll get back to you.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

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  8. #18
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Been battling the flu. :sick: When I can think straight again, I'll get back to you.
    --- this space intentionally left blank ---

  9. Amen xcav8tor amen'd this post.
  10. #19
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by xcav8tor View Post
    Hey Guys,

    Where did everybody go?
    Hey Guys,

    It's been 3 weeks, and still nothing. I don't understand the apathy towards this thread.

    If there are Futurists here, do you think the current build up of Russian, Turkish and Iranian troops in Syria - directly north of Israel - could indicate the immanent fulfillment of Gog's attack on Israel predicted by Ezekiel 38 and 39? If not, why not?

    For the Preterists here, do you feel that Ezekiel's "Gog" prophecy has been fulfilled in the past, and if so, when and how? How would you explain the historical absence of the Valley of Hamon-Gog where the invaders were to be buried, or the town of Hamonah? Does Israel memorialize this day of their deliverance from Gog? If not, why not?

    Jesus rebuked the Jews of His day in Matt. 16, "When evening comes, you say, ‘It will be fair weather, for the sky is red,’ and in the morning, ‘Today it will be stormy, for the sky is red and overcast.’ You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times." And Paul said in 1 Thess. 5, "Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief."

    There seems to be the expectation from Jesus and the apostles that while Christians will not know the day or the hour of Christ's return, we should be enough on the ball to recognize from the signs of the times (like Israel's return as a nation for example) that the time of His glorious return is drawing near. I am suggesting that perhaps these events in the middle east may intimate that the Battle of Gog and Magog - which may be closely tied to the Tribulation Period - may be falling into place.

    This should come as an exciting possibility and - if verified by subsequent events - galvanize us to spread the Gospel with even more urgency.

    Yet this thread is being virtually ignored. I don't get it. Pro or con, I would expect at least some spirited discussion.

  11. #20
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    I often post during breaks at work, when I don't have the time to give this the attention it deserves. Eschatology is largely an academic subject to me. We should be ready for Christ to return at an hour we do not expect. We should be prepared to endure persecution. Beyond that,
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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