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[Cow Poke]

You are right.

Jim

You are, too!

[Mountain Man]

Anders Brievik, Advent Lateka, Scott Roeder, Eric Rudolph, the Williams brothers and other examples show that Christians do attack people in the name of Jesus.

But the question is, are those Christians following the teachings of their scripture and the example of Jesus? No, they are not.

Muslims who murder infidels, on the other hand, are following both their scripture and the example set by Mohammad.

[Roy]

Just here to counter a claim by you. Still too busy with my new job to post regularly on tweb.

Breivik isn't a Christian, he doesn't believe in God. He's stated so quite clearly multiple times, including in his manifesto.

I don't want to download his full manifesto, since I'm at work, but various news sites

[Cow Poke]

I don't want to download his full manifesto, since I'm at work, but various news sites

It is not terribly unusual for such people to be all over the map with their statements of belief, especially in a manifesto.

His religious faith is Odinism, but Breivik and others have previously linked his religious beliefs to Christianity.

The manifesto states its author is "100 percent Christian", but he is not "excessively religious"; "I'm not going to pretend I'm a very religious person, as that would be a lie"; and considers himself a "cultural Christian" and a "modern-day crusader". He calls religion a crutch and a source for drawing mental strength, and says "I've always been very pragmatic and influenced by my secular surroundings and environment". Regarding the term cultural Christian, which he says means preserving European culture, he notes, "It is enough that you are a Christian-agnostic or a Christian-atheist (an atheist who wants to preserve at least the basics of the European Christian cultural legacy...)". Furthermore, Breivik said "myself and many more like me do not necessarily have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and God." Nevertheless, he said he planned to pray to God for help during his attacks. Before the attacks, he stated an intention to attend Frogner Church in a final "Martyr's mass".

Yeah, from that description, he could be a POPE!

odin.jpg

[Roy]

Wow. Roy, you need to do a little more homework before posting stuff like this.

Excellent rebuttal.

[Cow Poke]

Excellent rebuttal.

I followed up, Roy.

[Roy]

It is not terribly unusual for such people to be all over the map with their statements of belief, especially in a manifesto.

Oh, I agree. But to claim "Breivik isn't a Christian, he doesn't believe in God. He's stated so quite clearly multiple times, including in his manifesto" when Breivik's manifesto clearly states that he is a Christian and does believe in God is exactly the form of denial I meant.

[Cow Poke]

Oh, I agree. But to claim "Breivik isn't a Christian, he doesn't believe in God. He's stated so quite clearly multiple times, including in his manifesto" when Breivik's manifesto clearly states that he is a Christian and does believe in God is exactly the form of denial I meant.

Roy, the guy is all over the map - he has claimed to be a whole bunch of things. I did your homework for you and showed where he's quite conflicted. He appears to be a very confused man, and quite possibly a pathological liar. It doesn't matter how "quite clearly" a nutcase states something --- he could quite clearly state he was Lady Gaga --- would you believe him?

I'm really not sure what you're doing here - are you attempting to back away from your previous statement, or maybe you're attempting to double down.

[Roy]

I'm really not sure what you're doing here - are you attempting to back away from your previous statement, or maybe you're attempting to double down.

Just pointing out that the usual response to violence being committed by Christians is not
- "That act is not appropriate for a Christian"
but
- "That act wasn't committed by a Christian"
or
- "That act isn't as bad as those committed by Muslims"

[Cow Poke]

Just pointing out that the usual response to violence being committed by Christians is not
- "That act is not appropriate for a Christian"
but
- "That act wasn't committed by a Christian"
or
- "That act isn't as bad as those committed by Muslims"

The guy "quite clearly stated" he was all kinds of things - including Knights Templar, a Freemason, an Odinist.... there is nothing in his life that demonstrates he was even a CEO Christian.

[oxmixmudd]

I don't want to download his full manifesto, since I'm at work, but various news sites

A person can 'consider themselves Christian' for a multitude of reasons. Whether or not they represent the name they claim can be determined by whether or not they act according the the teachings of what they claim. As I outlined above, no-one commiting violent, lethal acts in the name of God can legitimately be claiming to represent or follow the teachings of Christ because at every turn and at every opportunity He and ALL His early followers of the religion rebuked such actions. It was not until Christianity became the official religion of Rome and the trappings of world power began to infiltrate and corrupt the faith that the world saw any kind of warlike action from people that claimed to be Christian. Not so Islam. It began and much if its initial spread was at the hands of tribal butchers that, as I said, gave people little choice but to convert.

One other element. Christian teaching is that all men are sinful, and the sin becomes utterly sinful when it takes that which is good and uses it for evil. When you see people taking the name of Christ within whose teachings is not one element that can be used to justify evil actions, who taught we should love all people as we love ourselves, that we should love our enemies and pray for them, that we should NEVER return evil for evil, tun the other cheek, walk the extra mile, give our shirt as well when our coat is demanded, and then using His name and His teachings as justification for evil actions, you are seeing direct proof of the nature in mankind that needs saving.


Jim

[Cow Poke]

Just pointing out that the usual response to violence being committed by Christians is not
- "That act is not appropriate for a Christian"
but
- "That act wasn't committed by a Christian"
or
- "That act isn't as bad as those committed by Muslims"

Roy, if the guy really WAS a Christian - not just a nutcase who claimed to be all kinds of things - I'd be most happy to denounce his violent acts.

In fact, I'll go on record ---- "assuming this guy WAS a Christian - what he did was HORRENDOUS, and a black eye to Christianity in general, and Jesus in particular".

(Actually, I denounce his violent acts regardless of who or what he claims to be)

Better?

[Mountain Man]

Oh, I agree. But to claim "Breivik isn't a Christian, he doesn't believe in God. He's stated so quite clearly multiple times, including in his manifesto" when Breivik's manifesto clearly states that he is a Christian and does believe in God is exactly the form of denial I meant.

Whether or not he's a Christian is beside the point, because anybody who commits violence in the name of Jesus is clearly acting contrary to the life and teachings of the man who's name they invoke.

[One Bad Pig]

Whether or not he's a Christian is beside the point, because anybody who commits violence in the name of Jesus is clearly acting contrary to the life and teachings of the man who's name they invoke.

You mean, we're supposed to take sayings like, "do not return evil for evil" and "'vengeance is mine; I will repay', says the Lord" seriously? Huh.

[Sparko]

I don't want to download his full manifesto, since I'm at work, but various news sites

Well let me denounce him for you. He does not represent Christianity, he is a terrorist. Christianity in no way teaches mass murder of innocents.