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Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Ed Markey to unveil 'Green New Deal' bill

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  • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Originally posted by Starlight View Post
    The actual text of the Resolution submitted to congress which is here doesn't contain any errors AFAIK.
    Thanks, Star. I'll give it a look. At first glance I didn't see the 10 or 12 year time frame, either.
    It does:
    (2) the goals described in subparagraphs (A) through (E) of paragraph (1) (referred to in this resolution as the “Green New Deal goals”) should be accomplished through a 10-year national mobilization


    Things, I note, however from reading it myself, are not present in it, that have been falsely asserted by conservatives, include:
    • The abolition of all cars
    • The abolition of all planes
    • Recycling of urine
    • Payments to people unwilling to work
    • Flintstone-style cars


    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    So, apparently, there was indeed a draft as I proffered....
    Perhaps you should concern yourself less with rumors about alleged draft texts of documents that were posted by staffers in error and then withdrawn, and more with an actual focus on the real proposals?
    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
      Perhaps you should concern yourself
      Perhaps you should stop being such a pompous jackass and stop telling me where my concerns should lie.

      ... less with rumors about alleged draft texts of documents that were posted by staffers in error and then withdrawn, and more with an actual focus on the real proposals?
      You mean, when Democrats accidentally expose what they're really thinking, I should ignore the man behind the curtain and wait for the sanitized version?

      It wasn't a rumor, and it wasn't an "alleged draft of texts" you goofus -- they owned it, but can't seem to get their stories straight.

      But on Saturday morning, chief of staff Saikat Chakrabarti tweeted that the FAQ page was indeed posted by the Ocasio-Cortez staff but was done so in error. He called the page "an early draft of a FAQ that was clearly unfinished and that doesn’t represent the GND resolution got published to the website by mistake (idea was to wait for launch, monitor q's, and rewrite that FAQ before publishing)."

      Ocasio-Cortez later Saturday admitted the same, tweeting at a Washington Post reporter, "There was also a draft version that got uploaded + taken down. There's also draft versions floating out there."
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
        You mean, when Democrats accidentally expose what they're really thinking
        Who's thinking exactly is being exposed though? Some staffer who was responsible for this draft which hadn't been reviewed and wasn't meant to be released?

        And what exactly does it tell you? That some Democrat somewhere supports a Universal Basic Income policy? I've got news for you, there's plenty of people that would support such a policy around the Western world. But putting it in the Green New Deal itself seems a bit inappropriate and distracting as it's quite an unrelated policy, besides which there would be plenty of Democrats who wouldn't support such a policy, so if it was ever in the early draft of the actual resolution it was presumably removed long before the final version because of lack of support for it.
        "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
        "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
        "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
          Who's thinking exactly is being exposed though? Some staffer who was responsible for this draft which hadn't been reviewed and wasn't meant to be released?
          And you know this how? Because you're the smartest person on the planet? I got news for you, Star --- those smart pills they're feeding you are rabbit pellets.
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            And you know this how?
            I asked a question of you. That wasn't a claim to knowledge on my part.

            However the various statements I've seen seem to imply a mix-up by one of her staffers. A Green New Deal FAQs had apparently been drafted initially, then abandoned and in its place they had worked on the Resolution text itself in conjunction with the other congresspeople which has now been officially submitted. AOC's intention was apparently to wait for public feedback to the Resolution text, and in light of that feedback to eventually dust off the old original FAQ draft and update it based on the feedback and on the various changes that had occurred as the Resolution went through the drafting process. Someone apparently stuck the old draft FAQ on the blog instead - I guess they were supposed to email it to someone to begin the update and re-draft process rather than stick it on the blog?

            Because you're the smartest person on the planet?
            Seems unlikely, and difficult to measure. Just the smartest person on this site.

            I got news for you, Star --- those smart pills they're feeding you are rabbit pellets.
            Hmm, if you take rabbit pellets as pills that could explain a lot.
            "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
            "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
            "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
              And what exactly does it tell you? That some Democrat somewhere supports a Universal Basic Income policy? I've got news for you, there's plenty of people that would support such a policy around the Western world. But putting it in the Green New Deal itself seems a bit inappropriate and distracting as it's quite an unrelated policy, besides which there would be plenty of Democrats who wouldn't support such a policy, so if it was ever in the early draft of the actual resolution it was presumably removed long before the final version because of lack of support for it.
              I started to ignore this little tirade, but it's just too rich.

              Summary....

              A) You really grasp at straws to separate this from AOC by blaming it on "Some Democrat" who supports a UBI policy. You think AOC does not?
              2) You try to justify this by claiming others "around the Western world" would support such a policy. No surprise. I'm glad you admit, however, that this is even too nutty for "plenty of Democrats who wouldn't support such a policy".
              C) And here's the kicker --- Even though the text is right there in black and white on the archive page, and the libs already owned it, you still persist in saying "if it was ever in the early draft" (it most certainly was) it was presumably removed long before the final version because of lack of support for it. How long before? What's the timeline there?

              You are REALLY grasping, Star --- this is not like you.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                "Some Democrat" who supports a UBI policy. You think AOC does not?
                I haven't heard her mention the subject despite having watched multiple hours of interviews with her.

                Googling it now I found this statement by her to the effect that she thinks the jury is still out on whether a UBI is a good idea or not.

                C) And here's the kicker --- Even though the text is right there in black and white on the archive page, and the libs already owned it, you still persist in saying "if it was ever in the early draft" (it most certainly was) it was presumably removed long before the final version because of lack of support for it. How long before? What's the timeline there?
                I'm not sure what is wrong with you that you are getting so into conspiracy thinking here. Take some chill pills before you turn into Alex Jones.

                Perhaps you're simply so embarrassed by the number of false claims about the Green New Deal that you've made in this thread that you're desperate to find something scandalous about it somewhere to distract from your own mistakes?
                "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                  I haven't heard her mention the subject despite having watched multiple hours of interviews with her.

                  Googling it now I found this statement by her to the effect that she thinks the jury is still out on whether a UBI is a good idea or not.
                  STOP THE PRESSES --- AOC is CONFUSED about something!

                  I'm not sure what is wrong with you that you are getting so into conspiracy thinking here.
                  I know exactly what's wrong with you that you are getting so into defensive nuttery here.

                  Take some chill pills before you turn into Alex Jones.
                  Why would I want to take advice from a nut who is deranged into thinking he's the smartest person on Tweb?

                  Perhaps you're simply so embarrassed by the number of false claims about the Green New Deal that you've made in this thread that you're desperate to find something scandalous about it somewhere to distract from your own mistakes?
                  Actually, I'm welcoming new information, and have already dropped a number of claims I can no longer support. It's YOU, my little pretend genius, who seems incapable of admitting facts not in dispute.

                  Like your goofus " if it was ever in the early draft of the actual resolution it was presumably removed long before the final version because of lack of support for it."

                  Why can't you just put on your big boy panties and admit "well, yeah, it was indeed there, and it wasn't removed LONG before the final version....."

                  I willingly back away from claims I can no longer support -- you just keep digging yourself into a deeper and deeper hole. Perhaps that's what your alleged PhD is ... a Post Hole Digger.
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                    Power loss over distance is proportional to the inverse square of the voltage, which is why very high voltage lines are used for long distance transmission. High voltage transmission is practical to a distance of about 4000 miles, which is longer than the US coast to coast distance so distance is not really an issue within the US. In general transmission losses in the US power grid tend to be around 7%.
                    If things were ran as the crow flies, sure. Too bad that the electric grid isn’t hooked up in that manner and the US and Canada have two major grids and three minor ones that are pretty much independent. IE, they don’t run coast to coast.

                    Solar, since it can be put on the house roof of the house using the energy, tends to not need such long-distance transmission. Though, of course, desert-based solar farms can be a thing, and electricity from them is transmitted to the nearest city via high voltage lines as per normal for any power plant.
                    Which again, you ignore the issues brought up. There’s no effective way to store large amounts of electrical energy so you’ll waste generation in non peak hours and have nothing during the night. Solar farms run into storage issues too.

                    Very large numbers of dams have already been built in the US. I am not suggesting building additional ones, merely suggesting their power be used primarily for load-balancing purposes.
                    And what do you do about areas of the country where dams are in short supply?

                    Batteries go in electric cars.
                    Which need to be charged by a plug into a wall. You do understand that the current electric grid would need an increase in capacity to meet an increased demand for all these cars you plan on charging up, right?

                    Your question seems to imply we need additional batteries outside electric cars in order to power them, which isn't necessarily true. Batteries within the power grid itself are purely for load balancing (i.e. when the sun is shining and/or the wind blowing they get charged up, and then they are drawn from when the sun isn't shining and wind not blowing), and how many would be needed is very hard to predict as it would depend one what ratio of renewables the US ends up adopting and how Americans end up using power across the day once they have electric cars (e.g. would they plug in those cars to charge during the day when they got to work? Would they plug them in at home overnight? Would they stop on their way home at a charging station? etc).
                    No, you don’t understand what I said and you’re attacking a strawman. See a coal or oil fired power plant can be turned on and off to meet demands during peak hours and shut down during non peak hours to help the grid run as effectively as possible to maintain that .98-.99 power factor. Wind and solar farms don’t have this flexibility and therefore for a zero carbon power grid to work needs a way to store away excess during non peak hours and a way to control the charging and draw during peak hours or non generation hours. No effective way to store this energy = you’ll never have a zero carbon grid. See, you don’t understand what I said and try to pretend to be an expert because you read a few articles, saw some YouTube video’s, and talked to people and think you know everything. For a solar and wind farm to replace a coal plant will take that sort of flexibility. Which means a ton of batteries and an increase in their efficiency as well as increased generation capacity to charge up all these electric cars you want. You do get this, right?

                    You're making wild claims here. And again you're parroting the Republican scam line where they don't ask the "how you gonna pay for it?" question about their own absurdly expensive wars and tax cuts and military funding, but whenever Dems suggest anything that would benefit the American people and the American economy suddenly "how you gonna pay for it" gets asked ad infinitum. Obviously it would be paid for through some combination of taxes and debt exactly like everything else in US history has been, and thus the question isn't particularly interesting.
                    I’m ‘making wild claims’ because you don’t understand the engineering complexity of this task and yet continue to pretend that you do. Technology has to be invented that has yet to be invented and tons of work has to be done installing this stuff and getting it to work. The North American electric grid is one of the largest and most complex engineering marvels in the world. Do you not believe this would be an extremely expensive project?

                    Apart from my general interest in the topic (e.g. I watched multiple youtube videos yesterday about current and future solar panel tech just cos I have an interest), there are people in my scientific research group doing research on the topic so I am subjected to occasional scientific seminars on the subject, and also my best friend worked for several years in two different private companies researching and producing new methods of electricity generation so I got to hear quite a lot about that over the years.
                    So a YouTube scholar and a friend is your education. That explains why you’re unaware of the issues currently coming up and why you keep saying I’m wrong, but not showing how.

                    I'm going to assume you yourself have zero expertise in the subject because you seem to be getting a lot wrong.
                    Not really. You seem to attack strawman of what I said though.

                    Yes, that is why solar panels are usually sold with inverters so they can be connected.
                    Are they sold with a battery back up that can be charged and used when it’s dark outside?

                    If what I said was true, thousands of people would already have put solar panels on their roofs and connected it to their homes and... oh, wait, that's happened. Guess what I said must be true then.
                    Too bad they don’t have battery back ups and still require a hook up, to the grid, to supply power when it’s dark outside, huh? You sure love attacking those strawman and ignoring what I said in favor of your strawman version.

                    Apparently a few orders of magnitude more than yours.
                    Your ability to attack strawman is surely quite a bit higher than mine, too bad you haven’t proved what I said wrong yet. See, I do electrical work for my job as well as occasionally side projects. I’m even doing the wiring on our house with an electrician and he seems to think my work is pretty good. What do I know though, I only work on this stuff, that’s no where close to Mr PhD graduate of YouTube University.

                    I get that you have a tendency to just utterly make up wild claims like that one.
                    And your evidence I am wrong is....
                    Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 02-09-2019, 10:16 PM.
                    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      You are REALLY grasping, Star --- this is not like you.
                      I have to disagree. It is exactly like him.
                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                        I have to disagree. It is exactly like him.
                        Yeah, I kinda rethought as I typed that....
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                          I haven't heard her mention the subject despite having watched multiple hours of interviews with her.

                          Googling it now I found this statement by her to the effect that she thinks the jury is still out on whether a UBI is a good idea or not.

                          I'm not sure what is wrong with you that you are getting so into conspiracy thinking here. Take some chill pills before you turn into Alex Jones.

                          Perhaps you're simply so embarrassed by the number of false claims about the Green New Deal that you've made in this thread that you're desperate to find something scandalous about it somewhere to distract from your own mistakes?
                          When it comes to the much needed Green New Deal to Reset Climate Policy, the mocking Trumpites can say what they want about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. The fact is she is dynamic, honest, straightforward and she walks the walk.
                          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                            When it comes to the much needed Green New Deal to Reset Climate Policy, the mocking Trumpites can say what they want about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. The fact is she is dynamic, honest, straightforward and she walks the walk.
                            She's a liar. 12 hours apart, she said the Green New Farce is and isn't a government takeover.
                            That's what
                            - She

                            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                            - Stephen R. Donaldson

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                              She's a liar. 12 hours apart, she said the Green New Farce is and isn't a government takeover.
                              And when an early version of the proposal was (apparently accidentally) posted to the web and then later taken down, she and her associates insisted that it never happened and that the early draft of the proposal was a hoax.
                              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                              Than a fool in the eyes of God


                              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                                Less misquoting people please.

                                What a nutty article. Do you actually believe this stuff?!
                                I linked to the actual Green New Deal FAQ which the article quoted from.

                                Or were you referring to actually believing the ridiculous FAQ? Yeah that was pretty hard to read without laughing. Reads like a 5th grade wish list of a perfect world. She should have added in pet unicorns for every girl.

                                Comment

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